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The Forum > Article Comments > A dreamer of nightmares: Ilan Pappe’s foolish plan to dismantle Israel > Comments

A dreamer of nightmares: Ilan Pappe’s foolish plan to dismantle Israel : Comments

By Clive Kessler, published 20/9/2012

Pappe and his admirers would give away what is not his, or theirs, to cede.

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What a pile of pro-Israeli propagandist pap(pé).

If you manage to wade through the repetitious emotive hyperbole, which meanders pointlessly from insulting Pappé to smacking down Australian Jews who dare to have a more liberal approach than Kessler, you might come away with two impressions: The first, that Mr Kessler believes Pappé and any who listen to him are ignorant hicks, devoid of any connection to the ‘real Israel’ – except, of course, Pappé is himself a Jew born in Israel (with probably greater claim to understand the situation than Clive Kessler) who has done the unthinkable – called out the Israeli government on their historical (and ongoing) misdemeanors in appropriating land belonging to the Palestinians. Ooops.

Statements like: <<What is worn lightly, a flimsy surface garment, is easily cast off. What is worn closer to the heart less so. And casting off what others value far more than oneself and cling to dearly is not generosity of spirit or exemplary political courage but farcical self-delusion>> are not only ridiculously out-of-place in what should be a straightforward political piece, but smack slightly of hypocrisy in light of the backlash against Muslims over the last week.

The second is that, as with all pro-Israeli commentary, no solution is offered. There is much moaning and wringing of hands that both Israel and Palestine must work together – yadda, yadda, yadda – but nowhere does Kessler actually state what he thinks should be done to facilitate this. Indeed, the message is clear – unless you are Jewish, and Israeli, and have deep-rooted and positive connections to the land and, more importantly, to the Israeli government, then butt out because it’s none of your business.

Except, Mr Kessler, it is. Because what happens in the tinderbox you like to call home (even though you don’t live there) affects all of us, in all corners of the globe.
Posted by scribbler, Thursday, 20 September 2012 8:11:19 AM
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I have always been unwilling to make comments on the situation of Israel

Clive claims that because of an ancient "historical" connection to the lands that now comprise Israel the Jewish People that live in the now time of 2012 have an inherent right to live there.

This claim is completely fallacious.

Human history is conventionally viewed as some kind of continuum of human awareness. But in fact it is actually made up of countless numbers of now dead people.

Presumed continuous human awareness, as if any individual coincides with the simultaneity of ALL of time and space, is nothing but an illusion. An illusion which is used to create and sustain the deadly drama that is now being staged in Israel/Palestine.

Who can thus claim to have some kind of historical "right" to live in Israel.
It seems to be that such a "right" can only be tentatively given to the descendents of a family who actually lived there for a continuous period of time, say prior to the Balfour Declaration or the 20th century. Or people who had legal titular documented ownership of land.

Using that definition hardly any of the now millions of Jewish people who now live there have any inherent "right" to be there.

I come from a German Lutheran background which as far as I know has no Jewish ancestries. If I decided to convert to the Jewish faith tomorrow would I then be granted the inherent "right" to call Israel by homeland, and thus the open-ended "right" to go and live there. And thus to participate in the "settler" movement which is systematically stealing the lands of the Palestinians.

A further point God is not the kind of Being who grants any group of people large or small exclusive right of possession to any piece of land, large or small.
Nor is God the kind of Being who chooses or creates a "Chosen" people who thus presume that they have a Divine mandate to pursue and consolidate their self-appointed "historical" destiny at the exspense of the Palestinians, and even perhaps the entire world.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Thursday, 20 September 2012 11:36:21 AM
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OLO really needs to examine its publication policy. Mr Kessler seems to have only a nodding acquaintance with history, logic and the realities of the modern day Middle East. This article is no more than an apology for the regime currently occupying the land they call "Israel". In time they will vanish from the pages of history and the world will be a better and safer place for it.
Posted by James O'Neill, Thursday, 20 September 2012 12:25:50 PM
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Many, if not most, countries in the world today are based on ethnic nationalism or self-determination. This gives a particular ethnic, racial or religious group priority over others in the same geographical area.

In the eighteenth century there were two revolutions. The American Revolution in the Declaration of Independence put out the idea that 'all men are created equal.' and the French Revolution wasabsed based on the Rights of [all] men. It took a Civil War to free people from slavery in the US, and now a dark-skinned man is president. The French Republic is divided between those who support the revolution and those who still oppose it. The latter came to power in the Vichy government during WW2.

The ideals of the two revolutions are still alive, and the democracies which try to make no distinctions between citizens on the basis of their ethnicity or religious beliefs are embodiments of that idea.

Although attention is focussed on Israel there should be no states that discriminate among its citizens.

There should be no Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist or Jewish states. There should be no national churches. Religion should be no business of government. Government should neither promote nor interfere with it.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 20 September 2012 12:56:30 PM
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A great article, Clive. Your views are intelligent and refreshing!
Posted by Bempec, Thursday, 20 September 2012 2:00:52 PM
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Anyone that calls for the destruction of his homeland has lost the right to be taken seriously, and is probably just saying outrageous stuff to get attention.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 20 September 2012 2:06:25 PM
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Pssst Clive, the bible is not real old son and judaism is an invented religion.

Why does Online opinion give so much space to these spinners for the criminal statelet?
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 20 September 2012 5:53:13 PM
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Dear Marilyn Shepherd,

Which religion is not an invented religion?
Posted by david f, Thursday, 20 September 2012 6:10:32 PM
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At least, dear Marylin and James, Australia still has freedom of expression which allows Clive to post his rather reasonable views. In the Arab world, undoubtedly he would be killed for expressing such views.
Posted by Bempec, Thursday, 20 September 2012 7:00:22 PM
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While we are dismantling counties why stop at Israel lets dismantle Pakistan. It was formed by chopping up India and was only formed in 1947. Millions of people were displaced but Oh of course it is Muslim so it is alright. Take Israel apart it is only a Jew country.

After all the only people that became refugees are Muslims. OH you say there were 950,000 Jews expelled from Arab countries when Israel was partitioned! All their things taken from them and they had to flee for their lives. But they do not count after all they are only Jews.

No if Israel was only Muslim it would be alright. no problem what it was called.

Let us not be naive Muslims have been ruling the area for a long time and do not want anyone who is not Muslim in their area of influence.

Israel was a nation before Islam when all the Arabs were Pagans or Christian. Jews have lived there for centuries when Hittites/Romans/Greek/Persians then Muslims conquered.

So despite what the anti-Semites and supporters of terror have to say Jews and Israel have a right to exist. Israel is a sovereign nation and must be respected as such.

Despite what the Islamic Brotherhood/Hamas says Jews are not decedents of Pigs and Monkeys but people with a right to live and have self determination.

Having said all the above it does not mean that the Palestinians do not have a hard time. They do. But it is not just Israel's fault alone. The Palestinian leadership has a lot to answer for. Constant fomenting of hate and violence. Strapping explosives on children and sending them out to kill and die may have some reason for harsh security processes. The snipping at civilians and rocket attacks on Israeli towns might be a reason for a security barrier.

When the Bali bombing killed Australians there was a huge hew and cry. 10 years on we remember with rage and sadness at the wanton murder of civilians but the sear volume of terror attacks on Israelis are ignored.
Posted by Ira, Thursday, 20 September 2012 7:08:57 PM
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Marilyn Shepherd

The article makes no reference to the Bible being the basis for Jews claiming a right to Israel, rather it claims that there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land “since biblical times” which justifies a sense of continuous association with the land. This is to counter the belief that Jews left Palestine after defeat by the romans, and only started to return under the influence of Zionism.

Judaism may be a human invention, but then so are all the other social constructs that we use to define our identity and affiliations – ideology, nationality, race etc
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 20 September 2012 7:14:29 PM
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It has been noted that religions are all made up and I agree. But the question raised was the exisitance of Israel. Not all the people are in Israel are Jewish. In fact Jews may be a majority but over 20% are not and you can be any religion or none and still be in government. Muslims, Jews and Christians are all Israeli citizens and have equal rights under law.

Some might say this does not apply to Palestinians and that is true. Palestine is ruled by Hamas and PA and they do not have the same laws. You cannot be anything but Muslim to be in government. Not dissimilar to other Islamic nations that tax people who are not Muslims.
Posted by Ira, Thursday, 20 September 2012 7:28:59 PM
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I beg your pardon, Kessler claims jews have been in Palestine since biblical times, as the bible is not real what are these so-called biblical times?
Posted by Marilyn Shepherd, Thursday, 20 September 2012 8:39:32 PM
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Dear Bempec and Ira. The issue is not whether or not Jews have lived in Palestine since the year dot. Nor is it fruitful to debate ancient history. It is obvious that many contributors to this thread have a viewpoint that is only marginally related to historical fact.

The criticism that I, and many others, level at Israel is not that it's inhabitants are Jewish. Nor have I ever expounded a criticism of the Jewish faith. What is of profound concern is the conduct of its government which justifies its treatment of Palestinians, it's ignoring of world opinion, the UN and the World Court, in terms of some imagined Jewish "right" to illegally occupy land, invade its neighbors, wage clandestine warfare, constantly threaten to bomb, invade or otherwise attack countries it doesn't like and so on and so on.

Contrary to the image cultivated by the mainstream media it is Israel that is the international pariah. Australia is one of only a handful of countries that provides uncritical support. That must change, but don't hold your breath.
Posted by James O'Neill, Thursday, 20 September 2012 8:47:46 PM
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Marilyn Shepherd

Even if you hold that the whole bible is completely a work of fiction, its stories are set in a historical context. “Since biblical times” can therefore perfectly reasonably be taken to mean “since the times written about in the bible”, without necessarily implying “since the events described in the Bible occurred”. And many of the major historical events described in the bible do have independent corroboration from archaeology (the Roman occupation, Baylonian exile, certain of the kings etc)
Posted by Rhian, Thursday, 20 September 2012 9:08:59 PM
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"Pappe seeks to recruit his listeners to his insight that, if only there were no Jews in the picture to complicate things for others, the world would be a simpler place; and to his ensuing action plan of voluntary or enforced Jewish disappearance in order to make things easier for everybody else."

Justify this claim. Ilan Pappe has never made any such statement.
Posted by Krandaar, Friday, 21 September 2012 7:34:16 AM
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Dear James,
Israel has had at all times tried to establish a peaceful relationship with the Palestinians. The fiction that Israel is an invading force neglects the history since it's establishment in the modern era of it's unilateral withdrawal from area it controlled after the 6 day war. Prior to the "peace Treaty" at Camp David and Oslo the management of the West Bank and Gaza went to Palestinian control. It was hoped that the creation of a second state would evolve.

Israel accepted the UN partition and established a country, the Palestinians did not.

However Hamas refuses to recognize Israel's right to exist and calls for the extinction of all the Jews. This has lead to continuous attacks till the security procedures become onerous. Read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas

Yes the current condition's are bad but the number of suicide bombers and murders of civilians both Jew and Arab have been reduced dramatically.

Israel has been the target of terror since it's inception. I would say the tolerance displayed has been remarkable.

Australian's would never have put up with a barrage of murders and rocket attacks on it's civilian population to the degree that Israel has.
Posted by Ira, Friday, 21 September 2012 7:41:58 AM
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Dear Ira, there are mo.re reliable sources than Wikipedia if you wish to understand the history of modern Israel. You could start with Norman Finkelstein and continue with Alan Hart for a start.

Unfortunately you have a very selective view of recent history. Israel continues to occupy, inter Alia, the West Bank and there are now more than 500,000 illegal settlers there alone. Israel continues to occupy the Golan Heights which it failed to withdraw from after the 1967 war. It occupied southern Lebanon for more than 20 years and has invaded Lebabon more than 3 times.

With the British and the French Israel invaded Egypt in 1956.

Of course rocket attacks by the Palestinians are unacceptable. But compare the death toll of Israelis from those attacks and he Palestinian death toll from Israeli attacks. Quite apart from legal issues there is also a question of proportionality.

Israel persists in portraying itself as the victim rich is a bit rich given that it is the sole nuclear power in the Middle East, has unqualified support from the Americans, and pretty much does as it pleases knowing that it will not be held accountable.

That may be the type of regime that you support. It most assuredly is not one that I do.
Posted by James O'Neill, Friday, 21 September 2012 8:54:57 AM
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Dear Ira,

There are many Israeli Jews and Palestinians who believe in a peaceful solution. But both sides also harbour extremist elements. History aside, Netanyahu and the Likud party have long pushed for Israeli (Jewish) autonomy at the expense of the Palestinians (and Arabs). They thumb their noses at any perceived western interference in their policies and continue to push settlements into the West Bank. This is not acceptable.

Netanyahu’s views of Arabs and Palestinians:
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/netanyahu-israel-s-arabs-are-the-real-demographic-threat-1.109045

and

Quote: “The term "demographic bomb" was famously used by Benjamin Netanyahu in 2003[88] when he noted that if the percentage of Arab citizens rises above its current level of about 20 percent, Israel will not be able to maintain a Jewish demographic majority. Netanyahu's comments were criticized as racist by Arab Knesset members and a range of civil rights and human rights organizations, such as the Association for Civil Rights in Israel.[89] Even earlier allusions to the "demographic threat" can be found in an internal Israeli government document drafted in 1976 known as the Koenig Memorandum, which laid out a plan for reducing the number and influence of Arab citizens of Israel in the Galilee region.”

http://www.juancole.com/2011/11/anti-liberal-netanyahu-slams-arab-spring-as-anti-liberal.html

http://goallegacy.forumotion.com/t17192-benjamin-netanyahu-comments

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Israel

Netanyahu on international interference in Israeli goals:

“In a video from 2001, Netanyahu, reportedly unaware he was being recorded, said: "I know what America is. America is a thing you can move very easily, move it in the right direction. They won't get in our way." Netanyahu also bragged how he undercut the peace process when he was prime minister during the Clinton administration. "They asked me before the election if I'd honor [the Oslo accords]," he said. "I said I would, but ... I'm going to interpret the accords in such a way that would allow me to put an end to this galloping forward to the '67 borders. How did we do it? Nobody said what defined military zones were. Defined military zones are security zones; as far as I'm concerned, the entire Jordan Valley is a defined military zone. Go argue."

His father’s influence:
http://972mag.com/the-late-benzion-netanyahus-appalling-views-on-arabs/44215/
Posted by scribbler, Friday, 21 September 2012 8:57:25 AM
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Additionally,

For easy to understand maps of the land grab, see:

http://fasttimesinpalestine.wordpress.com/2009/10/13/maps-of-israel-palestine/

Israel bleats that the Palestinians lost their rights to the West Bank after the 6-day war and the pulling out by Jordan, and cites indefensible border lines as the reason for increased occupation of Palestinian territory, including military rule, erection of walls, fences, road blocks, dismantling of Palestinian settlements, refusal of Palestine agriculture in Area C, increased military presence along the Jordan River, and different policies for Palestinians and Jews regarding allowable well depths. But this is only part of the picture. What Israel wants is more land – the West Bank contains some of the most arable land in the region – and, more importantly, water. It is that simple. When South Africa recently sold goods advertised as "Made in Palestine", it incensed Israel, because it reasoned that any goods coming from the area were Israeli, as the Palestinians had no claim to the land and, indeed, no state.

That Israel is obtaining land and water rights through stealth and a refusal to bow to UN pressure on settlement policy is indicative that Pappé is correct and that “Zionism is more dangerous than Islamic militancy” (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilan_Pappé ) The young man's comments at the end of Q&A this week about 90,000 proposed new Jewish homes in the West Bank is proof that Israel has no intentions for real peace.

Pappé is not calling for the dismantling of Israel, as Kessler would have us believe, but rather the integration of Israel and Palestine as a single state. Considering the ongoing conflict since 1947, it is clear that a two-state solution will never work. But Pappé’s continuing work for binationality is a thorn in Israel’s side and Kessler’s ‘article’ is proof that any kind of solution is a far-distant thing.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/sep/20/one-state-solution-palestinians-israel
Posted by scribbler, Friday, 21 September 2012 9:06:41 AM
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What fascinates me is that the anti Israel brigade always pontificate about the requirement to return to the "legitimate" 1947 boundaries. The question they always avoid is why is this boundary any more legitimate than the 1967 one?

The 1947 boundary was forged after all the Arab nations attacked the fledging Israel and found to their dismay that the expected easy victory slipped from their grasp and their armies were beaten to a standstill. This formed the 1947 boundary. The 1967 boundary was formed when once again the Arab nations launched an unprovoked attack on Israel and lost all the territory that had been gained of the former Palestinian protectorate in 1947.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Friday, 21 September 2012 10:31:05 AM
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To all that espouse Israel and the Jewish people have the right to claim their country as legitimate, can you please explain your belief when it is legally clear that the UN had and continues to have no authority or right to partition foreign lands. If I read history correctly Palestine was a Mandate A territory held ‘in trust’ until its independence as stipulated in Article 22 of the Covenant of the League of Nations which remains binding to this day.

If this is the fact, any argument in support of a Jewish nation and its continued legitimacy is based on a complete falsehood and does not stand the test of any legitimate argument to state otherwise.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 21 September 2012 11:09:54 AM
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It is amazing that if a single Israeli leader says that he does not like Palestinians then it is attributed to all of the Israelis and Jews.

When some idiot in the USA makes a movie about Islam that is put up on YouTube riots take place and people are killed.

Mean time on Iranian TV there is a movie denigrating Jews.

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/3560.htm

The offensive nature of the TV show on Channel 1 in Iran was lie after lie about the Jewish religion and practices. Jews ignored it as it was just so much typical propaganda by the Arabs.

Now I do not see that anyone on this forum that has attacked Israel have acknowledged that the Palestinian Governments have encouraged the killing of Israelis.

That while condemning the Israelis they have not condemned the use of terror by the Palestinian governments. I guess they think it is ok to fire rockets indiscriminately into civilian populations. It is a good thing to strap bombs on children and send them out to kill. It is a good deed to invade child care centres and machine gun babies. They can build statues honoring women that carry bombs on buses.

No I stand by what I said earlier. They are not anti-Jewish because of Israel they are anti-Israel because they are Jews. The racism is obvious and blatant.
Posted by Ira, Friday, 21 September 2012 7:30:00 PM
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Ira, and the rest of you apologists,

I have no problem with the general current Israeli population, those that espouse moderation, tolerance, a fair-go-for-all, whether they be Jew, Arab or other.

What I cannot tolerate is the utter disregard for the average Palestinian who just wants justice and an opportunity to live a life that we, here in the 'so-called modern world' would expect.

Unfortunately those in power in Israel are hell bent on destroying any semblance of peace with the current and future situation by marginalising and ensuring that Arabs and Palestinians in particular cannot get a fair go.

You can come back with all the suicide terrorist models you like, putting people in a yolk normally results in a push-back of some sort. Genocide and a disregard for human dignity is normally met with terrorist like responses, you will have to do much better to assuage my sense of fair play on this point.

Israel is a global pariah state politically and Israel would not exist without the financial, political and false media and perpetual lies and support from countries like the US and Australia, although it is finally pleasing to see a US President not automatically providing carte blanche support to the current sociopathic Israeli leader at the present time.

Let’s face it, next skittle on the global roll toward a controlled and manipulated Middle-East is the removal of Iran as a threat, despite every indication they pose no and I repeat no threat to anyone despite the insane rhetoric of their so-called leader.

Israel, the US and the corporate military industrial complex are all comfortable in their beds at night, a pity about the rest of us.

Using fanatical religion, mixed within geo-politics is a recipe for disaster.

I have no problem with a two state solution, but when one player is clearly not playing by the rules (Vis Israel) then I guess it’s fair game on this forum.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 21 September 2012 8:26:29 PM
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Dear Geoff of Perth,

Putting people in a yolk is an eggscruciating act. It is poultry behaviour.
Posted by david f, Friday, 21 September 2012 8:44:15 PM
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Hi David f,

I agree, I notice not one person, not one, has yet to answer my first post, the silence is deafening, I await the might (religious fervour) of those who claim to have a legitimate claim in counter........not expecting much....given the truth of my facts.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 21 September 2012 10:47:48 PM
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Geoff,

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make " it is legally clear that the UN had and continues to have no authority or right to partition foreign lands."

Agreed, therefore the 1967 border stands.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 22 September 2012 10:21:32 AM
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Shadow Minister, wrong, the establishment of Israel was and remains illegal by international law.

Plain, simple and for some strange reason you refer back to the 1967 war and resultant false boundary!
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Saturday, 22 September 2012 11:44:44 AM
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The first response by Scribbler - "What a pile of Israeli propaganda" - was very similar to poor Ilan Pappe's response on Q and A.

It was amazing how quickly Pappe lost his cool when Irving Wallach made his self evident comment that rejection of the UN partition in 1947 led to the Arab refugees, and that the Jerusalem Mufti being a Nazi sympathiser didn’t help! “Lies, you’re a liar, its Israeli propaganda” Pappe almost yelled at Wallach. Even Tony, who bent over backwards to be accomodating to Pappe, had to mention that he had seen pictures of the Mufti with Hitler. Well yes, that’s true, we all occasionally make bad choices, seemed to be Pappes airy reply.

I understand why Pappe’s animosity to Israel makes him such a favourite of the Friends of Palestine and BDS crowd, but with this outburst, he would have had to lose some credibillity - he's certainly more “activist than historian”.

I would have liked to challenge him that his effort to boycott his own former Haifa University is itself truly a dangerous McCarthyist idea, attacking academic freedom, and blocking important dialogue between ideological opponents. It's certainly ironic that Pappe is speaking at a Festival of Dangerous Ideas..."close down ideas that dissent from mine" would be Pappes cry.

I imagine Pappe will use the label “Apartheid” as a term to abuse Israel (like the tropes of old). Since anyone with any factual knowledge will know that Israel is nothing like Apartheid South Africa (I won't bother going into the weaknesses of the analogy) I presume Pappe will attempt to justify the use of the label by pointing to some separation, with a “separation is Apartheid” riff (I read in the SMH a couple of weeks ago about Gender Apartheid in Australia). Since Pappe separates Israel apart from other countries with far worse records in human rights or separation type activity, doesn't that make Pappe himself, a purveyor of apartheid?

By the way, I agree with Scribbler that the words "Pappe" and "Pap" coexist nicely
Posted by Allen, Saturday, 22 September 2012 12:27:06 PM
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Geoff the reason that no one really feels like addressing your post is that it is a nonsense.

The UN was given the mandate to partition the land that was formally Turkey and controlled by the former League of Nations.

If it was totally powerless to rule on the matter then you would have to say that India/Pakistan does not exist. You can forget Jordan and the borders of Syria as well. Greek and Turkish islands will need to be realigned. Yes I can see how that would appeal to some people.

Now The point that the Palestinians require a fair go is an obvious requirement. It would be in the best interests if it was up to the average Palestinian and the average Israeli. However the leadership in Gaza has adopted the bargaining method of using terror to make their points.

Although many people in both Israel and Palestine are working toward a 2 state solution and want a peaceful outcome for everyone there has to be a willingness to recognize both sides.

Since Hamas has taken over Gaza and have disallowed the existence of Israel the incidence of violence and murder along with the racist demands for the death of all Jews have escalated exponentially.

Since these are the people that are charged with the responsibility to negotiate the settlement of hostilities, Borders and trade, it makes moving forward by the average Palestinian problematic at best.
Posted by Ira, Saturday, 22 September 2012 7:29:49 PM
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Ilan Pappe has a point: Judaism does not serve the Israeli people, it is based on a lie and brings suffering, shame and danger on the ordinary Israeli citizens, hence it would be a good idea to dismantle the Jewish state... except... that Islam would not serve the Israeli people any better either.

Had there been no Islamists of the extreme variety all around Israel, then I would go with Pappe's call to dismantle Israel, but alas, that would leave the Israelis straight inside the crocodile den.

Sorry Ilan, not at this time, we are not ready yet.

Perhaps... turn Israel instead from being a Jewish state into being a Non-Muslim state!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Saturday, 22 September 2012 11:34:10 PM
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GoP,

You are painting yourself in a corner.

You don't accept the 1947 borders, or the 1967 borders. What do you accept? If the answer is only a whole Israel, the question is what do you do with the Palestinians in the west bank or the Jews, nearly all of whom have been born in Israel and are citizens of no other country.

PS do you want to revisit the borders of Russia, Poland, Germany and Finland that were forged in WWII?
Posted by Shadow Minister, Sunday, 23 September 2012 7:24:09 AM
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The two state solution is dead.
The only way such a primitive and one-sided system would be allowed by the Zionists and their ilk, would be if Israel continued to exert full control over every aspect of the lives of the Palestinians.

This "State of Palestine" would exist as a series of tiny concrete cantons, joined by tunnels or heavily fenced roads, restricted to a tiny percentage of the land that was once theirs. Those parts least desired by the Zionists.

The only solution is to return to the situation before al Naqba when people of all persuasions lived together in remarkable harmony.
Divisions only arose when the Zionists plan became obvious to all.

Anybody who continues to offer the same tired Zionist propaganda should understand that the world largely, does not believe it.
The problem for the Zionists is, you see, that they just can't stop being who they are and doing what they do, for all to see.

Total control of the land/subjugation of any/all remaining pesky Palestinians has and always will be, their master plan. All else, all pretense of peace talking and exchanging land (?) is just hollow and meaningless, buying time whilst they do as they wish.
Whilst so doing, many are getting wealthy by stealing land from the Palestinians (West Bank and Jerusalem) and building housing for "returning Jews", who all have far more rights than any existing Palestinians, in or out of Palestine.
This seizure of and building on occupied land is of course, strictly illegal according to international law.

Pappe (and Morris, before his shamefully retreat from truth) upset many by discovering and exposing the truth from the archives of both the British and the ancestors of the IDF, Irgun/Haganah. If these same archives have nothing more to hide, why have they now been closed?

Anther big problem for the Zionists is that the truth, which many of the older ones know, having assiduously kept it from the next generation, is horrendous. So horrendous the Zionists can not believe that a "Truth and Reconciliation" a la South Africa, could work.
Posted by Therzal, Sunday, 23 September 2012 2:53:42 PM
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Yuyutsu..
Pappe is not calling for the dismantling of Israel.
He is acknowledging that the present ZIONIST state is built upon lies, deceit, inhumanity and any number of war crimes.
It is the present regime that needs to be dismantled so that ALL can be given the opportunity to live in peace.
No country can exist based upon exclusivity of one race or mythological belief system.

The most rabid supporters of the Zionist State are Christian Zionists, who anticipate the return of JC when Israel is, basically, destroyed (some allies there!!) and the settler block, who are maniacal and in fact more active against Palestinians than Palestinians are against them. These nasties are usually sad no-hopes where they come from (States largely) who can now carry weapons openly and use them against a down trodden people who can't fight back. God's people.. Yeah.

Suggest you review the history a little more fully, beginning in 1897, Zionist Congress in Basle.
Posted by Therzal, Sunday, 23 September 2012 3:05:22 PM
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Dear Therzal,

You are bursting into an open door.

I don't know Pappe, so I simply believed the title of this article which claims that he wants to dismantle Israel. Is this incorrect then?

So now I am confused - is the idea of keeping Israel yet dismantling Zionism, Pappe's or your own?

Next question is how, on a practical level, can it be done - how is it possible to dismantle Zionism? who's got the power to do so anyway, yet keep the ordinary Israeli population safe from a flood of unabated Muslim hatred and revenge?

What makes you optimistic that "Truth and Reconciliation" a la South Africa could work in Israel? African culture is more easy-going and forgiving, not so the male-based Muslim culture!

Being angry at the situation is not enough, I am yet to hear of a practical, workable solution.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Sunday, 23 September 2012 8:31:41 PM
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Yuyutsu.
If you are really interested, you could read Ali Abunimeh, "One Country"
or you could wait for Pappe's book to come out.
In the meantime, you could familiarise yourself by reading Chomsky, Finkelstein, Finkelstein and Liberman etc etc.

All it takes is the will. But the Zionist programme was always about taking all. Their only regret was that they failed in 1948 to push out/kill all Palestinians. They recognised then that they would have problems later on. Unhappily for them, much more unhappily for the objects of their subjugation, they were right.
Posted by Therzal, Monday, 24 September 2012 6:46:37 PM
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Yuyutsu
"African culture is more forgiving....?"
Tell that to some poor bugger as they put the rubber necklace around his neck. You need to inform yourself more.
Posted by Therzal, Monday, 24 September 2012 6:50:42 PM
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Dear Therzal,

<<If you are really interested, you could read...>>

Thanks, but no thanks, I am not really interested:

All I care is for my family in Israel, they being stuck between those stupid Zionists and those stupid Palestinians/Iranians/Muslims. Surrounded by Zionists they suffer, but without those, surrounded by Muslims, they would suffer even more.

I don't need to read books in order to tell that Zionism is wrong - that is because Zionism is based on Judaism and Judaism is based on false premises. However, I don't seriously care for the suffering of Palestinians, just for the suffering of my family.

Had it been possible to retain Israel without Zionism, as a place where my family can live safely, then of course I would support it - that would have been ideal for my family, but frankly I don't see how it can be done and I don't see anyone around with the power to enforce it. I am just being practical, why should I bother reading about things that can't be done?
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 24 September 2012 7:14:21 PM
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National self-determination is based on the idea that a people united on some grounds usually ethnic or religious is entitled to a piece of land in which they can found a nation. I think it is a very bad idea. If the nation founded on such a basis contains people who are not of the ethnicity or religion on which the state is based they become second class citizens. Inevitably there will always be such people.

There should be no second class citizens any place. Nations should not discriminate among their citizens on the basis of ethnicity or religion. National self-determination is based on such discrimination. It's that bloody simple.

Historical presence does not entitle people to land. With the exception of Antarctica most of the land on this earth has been traversed and occupied by many people. What is a people? If we go far enough back in our ancestry all humans have common ancestry.

National self-determination stinks.
Posted by david f, Monday, 24 September 2012 8:53:19 PM
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Yuyutsu
No comment is needed from me.
Posted by Therzal, Monday, 24 September 2012 11:17:35 PM
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Yuyutsu
You are just what the world needs.
Somebody who complains about a problem from a purely personal/selfish perspective yet will not try and find the answer.
You say you are not interested because you see no answer.
I say that you have not looked in the right place with an adequately open mind.
Posted by Therzal, Monday, 24 September 2012 11:20:16 PM
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Although I don't always agree with Yuyutsu I think he is an honest person who says what he thinks. I also see no solution.

He wrote that Judaism is based on false premises. That does not differentiate it from other religions.
Posted by david f, Monday, 24 September 2012 11:59:57 PM
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Dear David,

<<National self-determination is based on the idea that a people united on some grounds usually ethnic or religious is entitled to a piece of land in which they can found a nation. I think it is a very bad idea.>>

Perhaps so, but if a group of people wish to stick together, purchase adjacent land and demand self-determination on their piece of land because they like their eggs scrambled rather than poached, then they should have what they want: So long as they all consent and hurt nobody outside their group, who am I and who are you to tell them 'No'?

The problem is not that nations or ethnic/religious groups are allowed self-determination, but rather that these are the only ones and others are not allowed to separate themselves on other grounds (say on the grounds of how they prefer their eggs).

<<If the nation founded on such a basis contains people who are not of the ethnicity or religion on which the state is based they become second class citizens. Inevitably there will always be such people.>>

Originally, when the land was purchased, everyone there preferred scrambled eggs. Those who prefer their eggs poached need not apply for residence.

<<He wrote that Judaism is based on false premises. That does not differentiate it from other religions>>

You said it, not I.

This is not the place and time, at the end of this tired thread, to begin a theological discussion, but had I failed to comment, then one could assume that I agree with the word "other", implying that Judaism is a religion.

Judaism is not a religion, but a national/tribal movement which just happens to abuse the name of God, inventing a convoluted version of Him for their tactical-political needs. So long as their god supports their nation, they find it beneficial to worship him. Had their god appear from the clouds claiming that they have no special rights, then they would have stoned him instead.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 1:54:37 AM
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GoP,

Your statement "Shadow Minister, wrong, the establishment of Israel was and remains illegal by international law." is rubbish. Where is it wrong?

Palestine was a protectorate that was essentially abandoned after terrorist actions from the Arabs and Jews. The partition was not accepted by either side, and the Arab countries invaded to push out the Jews. Today, most Jews have been born there and have as much right to stay as anyone else.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Tuesday, 25 September 2012 5:27:30 AM
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