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The Forum > Article Comments > 'We think it's time' - church gay marriage moves gather pace > Comments

'We think it's time' - church gay marriage moves gather pace : Comments

By Alan Austin, published 28/8/2012

For every Christian leader who opposes gay marriage there are many more who support it.

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"For every Christian leader who opposes gay marriage there are many more who support it."

If this is true, then, really, mainstream Christianity is finished. Done. Kaput.

The Bible is pretty clear on homosexuality: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Leviticus 20:13, King James Bible)

Now, I was under the impression that Christianity was based on the teachings of the Bible, and that Christians were obliged to follow and uphold those teachings.

Now we're being told that "for every Christian leader who opposes gay marriage there are many more who support it."

My question to those "Christian" leaders who support gay marriage: why bother with Christianity at all? It's clear that you no longer follow scripture. In fact, you are directly contravening it. So, why bother with the rest of the Christian act?

And here lies the problem with modern mainstream Christianity: it stands for nothing. It is a weak religion that has caved in time and time again on nearly every major moral issue of the day. Christian leaders have shown themselves to be unprincipled and gutless. No wonder nobody takes it seriously any more. No wonder more confident religions such as Islam are replacing it.
Posted by drab, Monday, 3 September 2012 6:45:13 AM
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Hello Drab.

Re: “I was under the impression that Christianity was based on the teachings of the Bible, and that Christians were obliged to follow and uphold those teachings.”

Most certainly. But it is a question here of what the Bible actually teaches.

The passage you quote deals with ritual prostitution in worship of the heathen god Molech - not with faithful, committed same-sex unions.

Leviticus 20 mentions Molech four times in the first five verses. So it pretty clear what the writer is discussing. Ritual homosexual acts are definitely prohibited.

If all same-sex unions were condemned, as some claim, the text would refer to other homoerotic acts. And would include women. They would also be proscribed elsewhere. They are not – ONLY in the two Molech passages in Leviticus 18 and 20. Nowhere else are same-sex acts mentioned. Not in the 10 Commandments in Exodus, not in the 11 commandments in Deuteronomy 27, nor in any other list of abominations, prohibited acts or instructions for the People of Israel regarding sexual matters.

Nowhere in the Prophets is there any teaching against same-sex activities at all. And in fact nowhere else in the Old Testament, except the attempted gang rape at Sodom (also prohibited).

Reference to the death penalty in Leviticus 20 confirms this is not a sexual issue but one of Satanic idolatry.

Scholars who seek to square the Leviticus texts with all the other Biblical revelation are increasingly finding this the most satisfactory exegesis. It is consistent with what scholars understand about ritual worship practices by the Phoenicians and Canaanites from sources outside Scripture.

It is consistent with everything else we now know about same-sex orientation and relationships.

So these two passages (Lev 18:22 and 20:13) condemn prostitution in Satanic worship. Not other activity. If you wanted to paint with a broad brush, you could say they condemn all same-sex prostitution and all sexual activity in Satanic worship.

So really, Drab, it is those who are now welcoming people in same-sex unions into their churches and synagogues who are being most faithful to Scripture.
Posted by Alan Austin, Monday, 3 September 2012 9:18:16 AM
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Dear Drab,

The Bible is quite clear on the prohibition against eating the flesh of animals who do not have a cloven hoof and chew their cud. If Christianity were kaput because it accepts same-sex marriage it should also be kaput because it accepts the eating of unclean animals such as pigs.

Christians accept what they want to accept in the Bible. Why should eating the flesh of unclean animals be acceptable and same-sex marriage not acceptable? However, there is one tremendous differencebetween the prohibition against eating unclean animals and same-sex marriage. Christians do not try to control other people's diets. Why should they try to control who other people marry? Legal marriage is under civil, not religious law. Why are Christians trying to impose their religious ideas on other people on the basis of the Bible when they don't even observe the Bible?
Posted by david f, Monday, 3 September 2012 10:02:06 AM
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As the Pope said recently, for progressive/feminists types, it's better they were honest with their unbelief and left the Church rather than try
to rewrite the Bible...they should 'let it go' and do their own thing.
Posted by progressive pat, Monday, 3 September 2012 10:17:24 AM
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What does the Bible teach about marriage? "Jesus answered, “Don’t you know that in the beginning the Creator made a man and a woman? That’s why a man leaves his father and mother and gets married. He becomes like one person with his wife. Then they are no longer two people, but one. And no one should separate a couple that God has joined together." (Matthew 19:4-6 CEV) Our concept of marriage in this Society is based on the natural, created order as taught by Jesus and his followers.

What does the Bible actually teach about homosexuality? The Apostle Paul taught that "...God let these people go their own way. They did what they wanted to do, and their filthy thoughts made them do shameful things with their bodies. They gave up the truth about God for a lie, and they worshiped God’s creation instead of God, who will be praised forever. Amen. God let them follow their own evil desires. Women no longer wanted to have sex in a natural way, and they did things with each other that were not natural. Men behaved in the same way. They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men. They did shameful things with each other, and what has happened to them is punishment for their foolish deeds." (Romans 1:24-27 CEV). The Bible teaches clearly that homosexuality is a sin against God's good, natural, created order, it couldn't be plainer.

The state currently recognises the biologically and ethically sensible view that marriage is the union of a male and a female, which is the natural relationship for the bearing and nurturing of offspring. In this Society people have freedom to choose to perform homosexual acts with consenting adults, and God lets people go their own way on this (see the Romans passage above). You may have taken a different route to the Biblical one on marriage and sexuality but please don't twist the Scriptures to support your views.
Posted by mykah, Monday, 3 September 2012 11:42:23 AM
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Hello Mykah,

You have raised pretty much the central question for Christian and Jews: what does the Bible actually teach? There is a range of opinions, isn't there? They cannot all be correct.

Increasingly, Mykah, Biblical scholars, pastors and teachers are coming to understand that it is those who want to condemn faithful same-sex partnerships who are twisting Scriptures to support their views.

The passage from Matthew you have quoted is dealing with divorce. Not with the gender or number or spouses in marriage. We find these matters dealt with elsewhere.

Jesus refers to LGBTI matters a little later in the same chapter, at verses 10 to 12.

Romans 1:26-27 relates to naturally straight men having unnatural gay sex for thrills with other men or with young boys - outside their marriage. This happens frequently today, as it did in ancient Rome. Think Ted Haggard and George Rekers. It is clear from the terminology this is what Paul is addressing: “They stopped wanting to have sex with women and had strong desires for sex with other men.”

So he is talking about heterosexual men – those whose natural sexual relations are with women. He is not talking about gay men – or lesbian women – whose natural, God-given orientation is same-sex.

All the other passages in Scripture that relate to same-sex behaviour similarly deal with abusive, destructive, coercive or idolatrous acts – not loving, committed, faithful unions.

Nowhere does the Bible require marriage to be one-man-one-woman, Mykah. Yes, it describes Adam and Eve as a monogamous couple. There are a few others as well. But there plenty of instances in Scripture of approved polygamous marriages and same-sex unions.

On marriage, some further discussion here:
http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=13758

And some discussion of same-sex unions in the Bible here:
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4143802.html

Hope these help. Responses most welcome.

Cheers, AA
Posted by Alan Austin, Monday, 3 September 2012 12:24:41 PM
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