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The Forum > Article Comments > If all men are monsters, how should we raise our boys? > Comments

If all men are monsters, how should we raise our boys? : Comments

By Peter West, published 9/7/2012

When I asked about books on men in one Sydney bookshop the reply was 'Oh God, I don't know. Try under mental illness or self-help'.

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As a general reply to the comments above, the problem is not that men and boys are undervalued, it's that they are OVERvalued. It's this overvaluation of boys and men in every sphere of life that is preventing them from questioning and challenging the biological and social expectations that society demands of them. In the end, men know that to challenge their conditioning might very well mean their loss of power and privilege - a position they know they never really deserved in the first place.

Deep down, men also know that for many centuries they have been overworked, exploited, cut off from their emotions, alienated from their children and sent to fight history's wars. They know they have been programmed to violence rather than co-operation, competition rather than partnership. More than anything, they know they have been taught to feel superior to women - and all the relationship dysfunction that brings.

Of course, after a lifetime of being overvalued simply for being born a certain gender, most men don't like any system that shines the spotlight away from them and onto women, even for a second. Little wonder that forums like this are full of cognitive distortions of reality into scenarios about women taking over the world.
Posted by Killarney, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 8:38:26 AM
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"just refer them to about a million global facts and figures that prove beyond any doubt that men are valued far more than women in every field of human existence - financially, economically, culturally, politically, personally and physically."

Either it's not that simple or men are not getting the message.

"In 2009, a total of 1633 males and 499 females died by suicide, representing an incidence rate of 14.9 in every 100,000 men and 4.5 in every 100,000 women." http://www.responseability.org/site/index.cfm?display=134569

Those figures don't necessarily cover all suicides, there are difficulties in separating suicide from accident in traffic incidents http://www.monash.edu.au/miri/research/reports/muarc216.pdf and research into that appears to be limited. From finish studies mention in that article "One study found that 95% of traffic suicide victims were male [41], while another found 90% were male"

Men are valued when they are successful but the message is all to often that we are not valued for who we are but for what we can achieve or provide for others.

I agree with Hasbeen that most men and women manage to ignore the extremists in our day to day lives however the subtext of men being disposable has found it's way into legislation where it can have a massive impact. It's not often stated overtly but rather forms the backdrop to the way family law and child support is done.

Feminism has brought some good changes for both men and women however there is an element that wants to play gender wars and has no interest in better outcomes for all.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 9:05:04 AM
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R0bert

Exact statistics vary, but all studies on depression and suicide show that, while men outnumber women in suicide deaths, women considerably outnumber men in suicide attempts and suffer depression in far greater numbers.

'Feminism has brought some good changes for both men and women however there is an element that wants to play gender wars and has no interest in better outcomes for all.'

Feminists are fighting for gender equality. It's men who are fighting the 'gender wars', because adversarial conflict and combat are what men are brought up to do best. If men wanted 'better outcomes for all', they wouldn't inject so much of their energy into fighting feminism and, instead, take a long hard look at why they keep defending and maintaining the very attitudes and behaviours that make their lives dysfunctional - and short.
Posted by Killarney, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 1:20:03 PM
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"while men outnumber women in suicide deaths, women considerably outnumber men in suicide attempts and suffer depression in far greater numbers"

Interesting take on the stats "while men outnumber women in suicide deaths, women considerably outnumber men in suicide attempts and suffer depression in far greater numbers"

From one of the documents I linked to earlier http://www.responseability.org/site/index.cfm?display=134569
"0.3% of men and 0.5% of women (0.4% of the sample overall) reported that they had made a suicide attempt in the previous 12-month period."
More than 3 times the rate of actual suicides (14.9 in every 100,000 men and 4.5 in every 100,000 women.) is outnumbering whilst less than double the rate of reported suicide attempts (0.3% of men and 0.5% of women ) is "considerably outnumber" - or do you have a source that you forgot to refer to.

The sources I could find suggest that women are around twice as likely to be diagnosed with depression as men. Not exhaustive but the twice the rate seemed to be across a number of sites http://depression.about.com/od/forwomen/f/prevalence.htm

I suspect that a significant factor in the difference in attempted suicide and depression rates is that men are expected to tough it out.

A cry for help (differentiated from a failed suicide attempt) is something that's likely to get a man looked down on rather than supported.

Depression has some of the same issues. The background subtext about expectations for coping are very different for men and women and that will impact on the rates that people are identified in relation to attempted suicide and depression.

As for the rest that's about your own issues rather than any real reflection of the world most of us live in.

There are men like that but most are not, we have not experienced the privileges of power and rank, rather we've grown up with an expectation of sacrifice for our families.

In the same way most women have sacrificed for their families and as with men a proportion abuse those relationships for personal gain at the others expense.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 5:18:48 PM
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Killarney,
You're stereotyping and "othering" the author and Men in general, if you can't understand why men feel the way they do it's probably because you're a woman or a man who is uncomfortable with how it feels to be a real man.
And by "real man" I mean a person who's comfortable with his masculinity, be he Gay or Straight, homosexuality of course is an aspect of masculinity, in many cases even a sort of "hyper masculinity", for want of a better term.
Women and Feminists are pretty good at telling us about why they oppose masculinity and maleness but they display no insight into the thinking or feelings of their subjects.
If I'd used the language in your posts to argue against the claims of any other identifiable group in society I'd expect to be pilloried in this forum.
Let's cut to the chase, you're not talking about all Men, you're promoting a racial thesis without using the "R" word because you're surely not talking about Aboriginal, Asian or other non white Male privilege. You seem to be under the delusion that we White men are somehow able to override the entire political and legal structure of this society and promote our own interests ahead of all others.
Name one group which openly and publicly promotes White male privilege as it's main focus of activism.
Name one group which publicly promotes White men's RIGHTS much less their advancement.
There are none.
There is no right I can assert nor entitlement I can redeem based on my race or my gender, can the same be said of women? Or Aboriginals? Or Sudanese?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 6:14:21 PM
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I felt annoyed and frustrated reading this very one-sided view on how all women think all men are monsters.

Lol!
Most women I know actually like the men and boys in their lives, and most women are well aware there are good and bad men in this world, just as there are good and bad women.

For goodness sake get over yourself Peter.
Such a pessimistic view of half the population (females) is a very unhealthy way of thinking.
Surely you can think of even a few women who aren't into male-bashing?

At least the last paragraph in this article was at more helpful and a little more positive in his suggestions as to how we should be raising our sons.
To my mind, most of us ARE raising our sons well already...by both mums and dads.
Posted by Suseonline, Wednesday, 11 July 2012 12:55:00 AM
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