The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Organic food – it's a religion > Comments

Organic food – it's a religion : Comments

By David Leyonhjelm, published 6/7/2012

Support for organic food is based on a belief system in which facts are not particularly relevant but allows the self-satisfaction of looking down on those who do not share your beliefs.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 5
  7. 6
  8. 7
  9. All
What you consider to be similar to a religion has not proven correct in this family. After ds was extremely ill with flu in the middle of last year (hospitalised) he never returned to full health. He also came down with everything that was going around and was visibly sick all the time. Multiple tests by the doctor came back negative and the medical community obviously did not have an answer. Our doctor suggested probiotics which was introduced and 4 rounds later he still showed no improvement. He had always taken a general multivitamin. We have always eaten healthy with lots of fruit, vegetables, whole grains etc so it was not our diet. We then introduced an immune system booster from the 'health shop' to the equation. There was still no visible improvement. The lethargy, paleness, picking up everything that was going around continued, he was visibly sick all the time.

Out of absolute desperation we turned to organic produce. After several weeks of being on a totally organic diet ds has visibly improved. His old energy has returned, he is visibly well again. This is anecdotal I know but obvious that the organic food was the turning point for him. It is NOT a religion but has been a choice after having tried everything else. We do not feel 'superior', just your average family. Will we remain as an organic family - maybe, maybe not. But right now it is the right thing for us as nothing else worked.
tired
Posted by tired, Friday, 6 July 2012 9:17:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well done David. Moralising, as opposed to morality, has become the most dangerous disease of rich societies in the 21st century. Too many people now distinguish themselves from their fellow citizens by claiming moral superiority through what they eat, how far their food travels and several other equally silly notions.

People can eat organic food if they like but they shouldn't believe they are improving their own health or improving the environment by doing so.
Posted by Senior Victorian, Friday, 6 July 2012 10:06:11 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Well I have read some rubbish in my time, this article just about takes the cake.

There are plenty of peer reviewed scientific studies that clearly demonstrate organic food is not only more nutritious, better tasting and yields in excess from mainstream 'industrial, mono-crop agricultural foods'.

I prefer my food, when I can get it, to be free from the oil and natural gas by-products (herbicides and pesticides) and from soils that don't retain years of residue from these chemically toxic substances.

With the increasing cost of energy, lowering yields, and difficulty in getting industrial foods to market in the near future, I would suggest you take a good long look at your biased hatred of organic farming foods and methodologies.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 6 July 2012 1:18:11 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Geoff

Most independent and rigorous analysis confirms what this article says - there is no discernable nutritional benefit to eating organic food. See for example:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19640946

The correlation with moralising also rings true, in my experience.
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 6 July 2012 2:53:17 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
So suppose you are right, David, and organic food IS a religion - then what?

Suppose "Tired", Geoff and others are wrong and organic food has no nutritional or health benefits, only spiritual benefits, suppose eating organic food does not make us healthier but does bring us closer to God - WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT?

Also, what's wrong with moral superiority? If you are doing better than average morally, then you are morally superior - that doesn't mean that you want to keep others inferior - on the contrary, you will only rejoice if everyone else were to rise to your standards!
(may I remind you that John Galt, Dagny Taggart, Hank Rearden, etc. were also morally superior - surely you don't oppose them...)
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 6 July 2012 3:17:06 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sorry Geoff, but the facts don't fit your opinion. Or should I say, your opinion doesn't fit the facts.

David is correct, organic yields are generally lower. There may be some crop specific exceptions, but they are not the rule.

This has been shown pretty definitively by these guys and published in Nature:
Verena Seufert, Navin Ramankutty, Jonathan A. Foley. Comparing the yields of organic and conventional agriculture. Nature, 2012; DOI: 10.1038/nature11069

That's not to say that I agree with everything David Leyonhjelm says, as much of what he writes is faith based free-market economy stuff (eg. he doesn't believe that quarantine helps anyone).

But he is right in this instance.
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 6 July 2012 3:29:53 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
you could rightly assume that the vast majority of those into organic foods also believe the gw myth. Green religion is full of myths and moralising which is why they hate Christianity so much because it teaches the only righteousness available to anyone is through Christ.Funny with all these pesticides how much longer most live these days, a fact often ignored.
Posted by runner, Friday, 6 July 2012 4:24:42 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Sorry guy’s but here’s one for you, the Rodale Institute has been conducting a long-term comparative Farming Systems Trial which started in 1981, 31 years to date, when it was already abundantly clear that industrialising nature was creating far more problems than it solved.

The Rodale Institute began documented research comparing organically fertilised fields and conventionally fertilised fields.

It’s the longest running comparative study of its kind in the world.
What did it find?

Organic yields match conventional yields
Organic outperforms conventional in years of drought
Organic farming systems build rather than deplete soil organic matter, making it a more sustainable system
Organic farming uses 45% less energy and is more efficient
Conventional systems produce 40% more greenhouse gases, and
Organic farming systems are more profitable than conventional.

Can't argue with that!
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Friday, 6 July 2012 4:25:29 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Geoff

the Institute is not an independent or academic scientific institution, its a spruiker for all things organic. Look at its website, for goodness sake.

you'll have to do better than that.
Posted by Rhian, Friday, 6 July 2012 4:42:01 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Runner,

<<you could rightly assume that the vast majority of those into organic foods also believe the gw myth>>

Sorry to disappoint you, I believe in the first but not in the second, they are completely separate issues. Organic foods are very compatible with religion and there are also many Christians who believe in organic food, obviously not as a substitute for Christ.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 6 July 2012 4:48:19 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Actually, yes you can Geoff.
1) The only reference I can find that makes any sort of claim similar to what you have written is in a book chapter. And it only mention maize and soybeans in Pennsylvania. You should really take a look at what constitutes a 'drought' in Pennsylvania. I very much doubt that it is the same condition in Africa.

2)I did also find someone who critically reviewed some of the Rodale Institutes work:
Title: The potential for organic agriculture to feed the world is being oversold.
Author: Gianessi L.
Source: Outlooks on Pest Management Volume: 20 Issue: 1 Pages: 4-5 DOI: 10.1564/20feb02 Published: 2009
Abstract: For many years the conventional view has been that a widespread conversion to organic farming practices would mean starvation around the world because the organic methods would result in considerably less crop yield in comparison to current farming methods that rely on pesticides to control damaging pest populations. This conventional view has been challenged recently by advocates of organic agriculture, such as the Rodale Institute, who claim that organic agriculture can feed the world with comparable crop yields. These advocates cite articles that have compiled research results that compare yields between organic test plots and pesticide-treated plots. They claim that these research results show comparable yields and therefore conclude that organic agriculture could be adopted to feed the world. The most recent article to compile these research studies was published by researchers from the University of Michigan, USA. This paper emphasizes that the studies cited in these compilations shows serious misinterpretations of the experiments leading to the unwarranted conclusion that organic agriculture can feed the world. The paper presents the African experience as a preview of trying to feed the world with this method.

Consider it arguable!
Posted by Bugsy, Friday, 6 July 2012 4:49:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Chemical-based agriculture has had a significant impact on countries like India. The Green revolution brought much hope and was seen as a runaway success. In it's wake though it has left land degradation, poisoned groundwater and a dearth of knowledge of ancient farming....but times are changing and many Indian farmers are reverting to old methods.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104708731
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 6 July 2012 4:59:32 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yuyutsu

point taken although their are always exceptions to the rule.
Posted by runner, Friday, 6 July 2012 5:01:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David Leyonhjelm's special interests / conflicts of interest pretty much speak for themselve's don't they?
Was there ever any chance he was going to be anything other than highly selective and biased?
Posted by DrKnowalittle, Friday, 6 July 2012 6:17:21 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Each to his own I guess!
We have a beautiful vege garden and prefer home grown only because it tastes better but I can tell you organic has a lower germination rate and does not produce as well!
Posted by Sharky, Saturday, 7 July 2012 6:43:18 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The expression "A fool and his money are soon parted" is given life by the "organic food" market. Organic food does the same for your health as a Gucci bag does for your purse carrying ability. It allows you to feel smug.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 7 July 2012 8:56:10 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Yes a fool and his money are soon parted.

In 2008 I completed a Permaculture Design course. It has many similarities to growing fruits and vegetables as the 'organic' industry do.

I can attest 100% that using the principles I learnt, companion planting, building healthy soil, crop rotation, water sensitive design and seed saving to name but a few, I now grow more fruit and vegetables than my family of 4 can consume, even during the harsh Perth summer and in winter.

As I seed save, I do not buy seedlings or other additives for my vegetable garden.

I spend about 2 hours per week, tending the 'patch' and I know from experiment the food we eat is saving us a bundle of money and it also looks and tastes a whole lot better than the crap sold at Coles, Woolies and many of the local fruit and veg stores around Perth.

I have begun to experiment with grafting fruit trees and now have an apple tree that produces 5 different varieties, this allows me to harvest apples for nearly 8 months of the year.

I am sure further development of my 'patch' will result in even better yields in years to come.

As to waste, well we have none, the worm farms and compost heap solve these issues and my water gathering into tanks ensures that any water used comes at no cost.

Simple really, puts paid to a lot of what has been stated above.

My garden and it's bounty is proof positive that organic food works for me, and there is no moral or religious bent behind my ethos for doing so, it just makes so much sense, financially, socially and for my families general health, happiness and well being.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Saturday, 7 July 2012 10:56:28 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Geoff,

You have a hobby congratulations. If the 2hrs per week plus your investment in land, water tanks etc gets you some nice legumes good for you, you don't have to justify it. I believe that you believe it.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Saturday, 7 July 2012 11:07:32 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I'd be all for organic farming if humanity chose to live within its means and husband its resources, but since the human race is bent on endless expansion within finite limits, and conspicuous consumption of limited, non-renewable resources, agressive, industrialised, genetically modified, inhumane and chemically-enhanced farming practices are de rigueur, so that we may "postpone" the inevitable, biblical-scale famine that's to ensue.
Thus I see organic farming in the same light as vegetarianism, multi-vitamins, environmentally-friendly shopping bags and going to the gym; just another boutique industry that's sprung up cater to rich, selfishly self-obsessed consumers and sundry petty moralisers. The world cannot possibly feed the emerging billions via organic farming or free-range chickens etc., which are only produced to create comforting illusions for those who can afford them.
I prefer to face reality; that the capitalist juggernaut is a rapacious and relentless monster that accommodates localised and fortuitous delusions of humility.
Capitalism is the religion. All else is vanity.
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 7 July 2012 11:39:34 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
>>it also looks and tastes a whole lot better than the crap sold at Coles, Woolies and many of the local fruit and veg stores around Perth.<<

Well of course it does. It's fresh. Woolworths might call themselves the fresh food people but their produce has sat in cold storage for some time before it is put on the shelves. Coles don't even bother pretending.

If you let your home-grown veg sit about for a few weeks after harvesting like retailers do with their organic produce it will lose flavour and nutritional value and end up the same as the organic or inorganic - what the hell is an inorganic vegetable anyway? - produce you might buy. But it's the time from harvest to the time of consumption that makes the difference not how it is grown.

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Saturday, 7 July 2012 3:42:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
tired,

I too had similar health issues. Mine were related to bowel cancer.

I now only eat organic foods and touch nothing with additatives or preservatives ... as well.

My experience is if I eat anything from coles or woolies my bowel pretty well instantly goes into irregular movements and/or produces constitutional oddities. (ie I don't c..p properly or with difficulty.)

To everyone else,

I have no particular religious beliefs, (only that before Higgs boson and the big bang there was still nothing and the universe is still expanding into nothing and that some call that nothing, which has no proven beginninng and has no proven end, god and others call it space. After spending the best part of 15 minutes debating the subject with my overly intellectual athiest son I'm now ambilivant ... and no wiser.)

I have no financial interests in or have anything to gain or lose from promoting or condemning research in chemical manufacture and biotechnical crop control or conventional farming nor a home garden (although I'd like one but it's difficult as I live on a yacht).

I laugh at global warmers and open marketeers equally... and will laugh at anyone who thinks I'm in any way odd or not entitled to express and share my experience or opinions..
Posted by imajulianutter, Saturday, 7 July 2012 4:35:22 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Just to clarify a couple of the negative rants following my last post, I currently own 13 acres about 1.2 hours south-east of Perth, fairly marginal land. I am currently producing good food in an area that would typically fit on a normal suburban block.

I have no idea why so many of you have such a myopic view of attempting to reduce one's reliance on 'industrial agriculture' it's really not that difficult. It's also a great tonic when one wants to get away from the stress of everyday life, gardening is quite a peaceful and enjoyable habit to get into.

As for meat, I will increase my chicken and rabbit holdings soon and I also intend to experiment with a goat or two, and even perhaps a sheep, although I could just cross the road an nab a lamb or two from my farmer friend who has suggested I do just that.

I do not advocate that everyone can live the way I do, but a little forethought and work goes a long way.

As to being rich, far from it, I have spent my life's savings to get to where we are today and we live a very frugal but fruitful (excuse the pun) lifestyle, not for everyone I acknowledge, but one we as a family truly enjoy.
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Saturday, 7 July 2012 6:13:16 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers,

You're right that the planet hosts too many people, and mostly we're reliant of chemical induced monoculture to do it. But if you read that link on Indian Farmers you'll see that not all organic efforts are part of the boutique industry. India in particular has seen what happens when man thinks he can just keep taking from the soil without taking the time to care for it. Diversification, which was always part of traditional farming, has returned and it brings benefits to farmers who seek to look after their soils instead of leeching all the nutrients and organic matter out of it. Farmers in the third world have knowledge of myriad plants that they've always used to supplement subsistence crops - biodiversity is the life blood of traditional farming practice and that knowledge was under threat with the introduction of monoculture in these places.

It's all very well to "face reality" - but why should that stop people from having a go at organic production and good husbandry of the land. When life comes down to individual experience, why not seek a more authentic way of finding some meaning?

No doubt the world's is heading for a "correction", but that's no reason to lie down and let the juggernaut overwhelm you.
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 7 July 2012 7:08:23 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
And here I was, all these years, thinking organic food tasted better. So much so that I get withdrawal symptoms when I don't get my organic spuds. I could swear they had more taste and a satisfying chewy texture, compared to soft insipid supermarket spuds that crumble blandly in your mouth.
And that taste of organic summer fruits that I could swear was so much sweeter and chewier than insipid supermarket fruit.
And the buzzing taste of homemade raw goats cheese... was that but an illusion?
Alas, I guess my "beliefs" were wrong all these years. My self-satisfaction was nothing but an illusion. *sigh* I guess we can't trust our senses anymore, eh? Lucky we have people like David L to tell us how we FEEL about our food, given our senses are apparently so unreliable these days...
Posted by mralstoner, Saturday, 7 July 2012 7:43:39 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Geoff of Perth,

Hat's off to you....and the best of luck with your smallholding : )
Posted by Poirot, Saturday, 7 July 2012 10:00:48 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Thanks Poirot,

I can only say I enjoy every minute of it, and to all the wowser's out there, perhaps they have a lot to learn and appreciate

Appreciate the positive feedback, finally.

Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Sunday, 8 July 2012 12:03:03 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
In my retail experience, organic food is something that is often taken for granted.

What I mean is, as long as the label says organic, many people believe it.

It is for this reason why I didn't sell or promote organic meats, because they were too easily substituted.

In fact, I lobbied the organic federation, as a mamber, for changes in the way they promoted organic, especially when it came to packaging.

My point was that organic meat came in a box fit for a king, yet the cry o vac package was plain. I suggested they had this back to front but this fell on deaf ears.

I started selling organic chickens, however, after being abused several times, and being accused of being a rip off I stopped selling them.

I would have people coming to me saying they could buy organic chickens for $6 per kilo, yet I paid more than this, but they were organic.

I also knew a shop that sold corn fed chicken breasts, made a fortune, but simply took plain CB and soaked them in creamed corn for a few days so they turned yellow.

There were others who sold anything in fruit or veg with a blemish, as organic, and people fell for it.

My suggestion is, that if you truly want organic food, you must grow it yourself, or pay for it.

BTW, we ate the remaining organic chickens and my kids didn't like them, however, they reminded me of the chickens we raised, killed and ate as a kid.

So my suggestion is that if you try organic chicken and don't find much difference, then you have been ripped off.

The difference in OR beef is less distinctive.

I sold Tasmanian beef and lamb, although it was not organic, it was guaranteed hormone and steroid free, as these are banned in TAS.

for the record, hormones and steroids in chicken have been banned in AU for about 15+ years, but don't let the truth get in the way of a good story when it comes to marketing.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 8 July 2012 9:30:23 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Geoff,

It's inspiring to hear of someone having a go.

I'm all for the simplicity amidst the clamour of modern life. We have chickens who meander around the garden all day, and a sizable vegie patch, compost bins and the like. I think it's possible to loosen the shackles imposed by modern society, to stand back and take a breath and do something simple and meaningful - great therapy in a rushed, time poor society.

Cheers.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 8 July 2012 9:35:51 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Poirot,
You make good sense and I’m not knowledgeable on the subject, but. First, I’m not against organic farming, indeed the phrase “husband resources” is a constant refrain of mine on OLO, in the larger context, and I didn’t say “all organic efforts are part of the boutique industry”; I was alluding to organic fastidiousness and “lifestyle choices” catered for in the wealthy West, and in the larger context of wealth production. It’s pleasing that organic farming is making a comeback in the third-world and looks like being more productive and less expensive and damaging in dry and impoverished countries like Africa and India, though there are downsides associated with the problem of sheer scale, which was my real point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organic_farming#Research.2C_analysis_and_commentary
I also don’t say the problem should “stop people from having a go at organic production and good husbandry of the land”, and I completely endorse this: “When life comes down to individual experience, why not seek a more authentic way of finding some meaning?” Indeed I said essentially the same thing recently: http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13804#238630
The truth is though that in OZ very few organic consumers grow their own produce or live the sustainable lifestyle. For most, organics is just another trendy indulgence that helps them feel good about themselves. And it’s mostly a marketing angle for producers and entrepreneurs. Even for genuine down-to-earth enthusiasts the danger is, like the Amish, being in denial of the harsh realities that make a mockery of such escapism—indeed grant the indulgence!
For me it’s the engine that drives growing demand and destructive practices that has to be reformed, and not the practices within that dispensation. The drive for profit is the problem. Profit comes from growth. Organic farming is like the drive to make the State secular and “idealistically” inclusive; it does nothing to address the real problem—the State itself and the “material” inequities it perennially fosters. We’re ‘subjective’ creatures—confined and parochial in our habits of body and mind—and just cannot see beyond our normalised horizons. To paraphrase Chesterton, the most obtuse part of a painting is the frame.
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 8 July 2012 10:21:39 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Squeers,

I appreciate that it's the enveloping system that needs reform. But how can we even begin to "address the real problem" without a fundamental shift in mindset - which seems impossible, and will only come about when needs must.

Organic cultivation draws on wisdom and bygone knowledge. Perhaps, at least, those who are learning, practicing and perpetuating this art will serve as a repository for future generations (who will probably need it)....while enhancing their own lives with meaningful concepts and purposeful toil.
Posted by Poirot, Sunday, 8 July 2012 11:18:50 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Maybe there is indeed a religious element to this but no so much for the belief in organic foods.

The true zeal is toward the promotion of non-organic foods, particularly GM technology and all it's so-called benefits.

On one hand the reasoning is increased production but the real motivation is simply for increased profits plus the ultimate control of all food and distribution by a few, like Monsanto in particular.

For an interesting view of the nature of agribusiness, I recommend watching the documentary "Food, Inc".
Posted by wobbles, Sunday, 8 July 2012 12:17:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
<Organic cultivation draws on wisdom and bygone knowledge. Perhaps, at least, those who are learning, practicing and perpetuating this art will serve as a repository for future generations (who will probably need it)....while enhancing their own lives with meaningful concepts and purposeful toil.>
An excellent point Poirot, I can't argue with that.
There are also of course other possibilities, such as that we might be able one day to grow meat in the lab and otherwise synthesise food a la Star Trek.
Some trivia; organic carrots in Coles today were $3.99 kg, while the intensively farmed ones were on special for $1.00 kg. Even when they're not on special they're not much more than that. I think the reality is we can learn from organic 'and' modern farming techniques.
I buy free range eggs btw.
Posted by Squeers, Sunday, 8 July 2012 6:29:40 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I have a little experiment that I have shown can change people's minds on the value of growing vege's at home.

Get some reputable, heirloom beetroot seedlings, grow them, once of sufficient size, go to any of the major supermarket chains and buy some of their so-called fresh beetroot.

Clean both and then bake in an oven.

I can guarantee 100% the home grown version will not only have good texture, taste and smell just fabulous, but you will eat no more than just part of one, purchased from the supermarket.

A very simple exercise and one that continues to prove to me the value of growing one's own.

Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Monday, 9 July 2012 10:55:13 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David,
You sound like an agricultural salesman. It is immaterial which system of cultivation is better. We currently (world wide), produce more food than can be eaten. Up to an estimated two thirds is wasted because of distribution systems that date back to the ancient Greeks. Market forces are what matters. If people wish to eat organic produce then why not. If a placebo works then it works, end of story. The results are what really matter.
Our science(s) especially around genetics is far from complete. Our understanding of it (we have found), is rudimentary. The science is new and long term effects can not be established, as there is little in the way of history to look back on. Look at Thalidomide (it is part of OUR history), the thousands of PEOPLE born with gross deformities.
Please, please let us not recreate that disaster because we wish to chase greater and greater profits - at the expense of our children.
Posted by JustGiveMeALLTheFacts, Monday, 9 July 2012 11:03:25 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
"...It is immaterial which system of cultivation is better...."

It might be immaterial to a Westerner who doesn't have to deal with the realities of degraded land and depleted groundwater supplies.

I've posted this link numerous times on OLO, but Vandana Shiva puts it way better than I ever could.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_2000/lecture5.stm

and

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/india_water.html
Posted by Poirot, Monday, 9 July 2012 11:21:35 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The reasons to choose organic foods are not trivial. For instance, organic standards require growers and processors to avoid synthetic chemicals. In contrast, the standards that our chemical and food regulators set for conventional foods allow them to contain substantial amounts of chemical residues. Few of these toxic substances were ever tested for their cumulative or long-term impacts on human health before approval.

Take a typical carrot, for example. Maximum Residue Limits (MRLs) are set for the seventeen synthetic weed, insect and fungus killers that are allowed in carrot production. In the worst-case scenario, your carrot will still comply with the law when 87.24 mg/kg (8.724%) of toxics remain. Similar toxic brews may be on other vegetables in your salad too!

So, there's a lot to be said for the health and well-being benefits of organic foods. Savings on the cost of chronic disease to the health care system is just one. Organic food is not the middle class cop-out that some people claim but a sensible health protection measure that should be available to everyone.
Posted by Bob Phelps, Monday, 9 July 2012 6:36:57 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
>>In the worst-case scenario, your carrot will still comply with the law when 87.24 mg/kg (8.724%) of toxics remain.<<

You're out by a couple of decimal places there Bob. 87.24 mg/kg is 0.008724%. How are we supposed to take your advice on scientific and technical issues seriously when you can't even master simple arithmetic?

Cheers,

Tony
Posted by Tony Lavis, Monday, 9 July 2012 7:32:52 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think many of you illustrate Leyonhjelm's point quite well.

From those discussing their hobby gardens, thinking that all you need to do is scale up to feed the world, to other discussing 'productive and meaningful toil'. I'm glad that you found meaning in your garden, but somehow I doubt that you grow or store much grain or cereals. For many people (most)in the world, a lovely plot of land is just not an option. And there are major problems with scalability.

Then of course there are those that take the 'power of prayer' approach , i.e. 'it worked for me!, Hallelujah!'.

A couple though list some facts that sound decidedly fishy. Two thirds of world production lost because of ancient distribution systems? Really? Wow.

And Bob Phelps lists some MRLS for some fictitious chemicals that could theoretically add up to 8% of the food weight? of carrots? Really? 87mg/kg is actually 0.008% (not 8%), which is still waaaay higher than any MRL I have ever seen. That must be some non-toxic chemical. Which one is it by the way Bob?

I don't mind people choosing organic for themselves, but please don't pretend that it can 'feed the world'. Try storing grain organically for longer than 3 months and you can see how much that will cost. It won't be insect-free, that's for sure.
Posted by Bugsy, Monday, 9 July 2012 8:09:13 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear Bugsy,

<<I think many of you illustrate Leyonhjelm's point quite well.>>

Leyonhjelm never limited his claim to mass production or to feeding the world. In fact, his opening statement is: "No intelligent person would choose organic food over conventional food on objective grounds."

In other words, this article is not really about the goodness or otherwise of organic food, but merely a pretext for yet another attack on religious people, labeling them as "unintelligent".

This is especially unbecoming of a public officer of a political party that is supposed to promote freedom for all, including religious freedoms.

<<Try storing grain organically for longer than 3 months and you can see how much that will cost. It won't be insect-free, that's for sure.>>

Organic rice can easily be kept insect-free for 10-15 years when sealed with nitrogen in metal containers.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 9 July 2012 10:13:03 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
The Maximum Residue Limits (MRLs) of synthetic chemicals allowed in conventional food production are at: http://www.comlaw.gov.au/Series/F2008B00619 The 17 synthetic chemicals approved by the APVMA and FSANZ for spraying on a non-organic carrot, with MRLs totalling 87.24 mg/kg, are: heptachlor, 0.2 mg/kg; maleic hydrazide, 40 mg/kg; parathion-methyl, 0.5 mg/kg; 2-phenylphenol, 20 mg/kg; quizalofop-ethyl, 0.02 mg/kg; quizalofop-p-tefuryl, 0.02 mg/kg; tebuconazole, 0.5 mg/kg; trifluralin, 0.5 mg/kg; azoxystrobin, 0.2 mg/kg; 2-chloro-N- (4_-chloro-5-hydroxybiphenyl-2-yl) nicotinamide, expressed as boscalid equivalents, 1 mg/kg; chlorfenvinphos, 0.4 mg/kg; 4-hydroxy-2,5,6-trichloroisophthalonitrile metabolite, expressed as chlorothalonil, 7 mg/kg; dicloran, 15 mg/kg; difenoconazole, 0.2 mg/kg; total dithiocarbamates expressed as carbon disulphide, 1 mg/kg; fentin hydroxide 0.2 mg/kg; iprodione, 0.5 mg/kg.
Posted by Bob Phelps, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 1:23:40 PM
Find out more about this user Visit this user's webpage Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
I think you are being a bit obtuse Bob.
Actually, only 6 of those chemicals you listed are approved for use on carrots in Australia.
Just because they have an MRL, does not mean they are registered or approved for use.

The data is here:
http://services.apvma.gov.au/PubcrisWebClient/welcome.do
Search for carrot in the crop field

Of those 6, 2 are herbicides and 4 are fungicides, and the herbicides are are set at the limit of detection (i.e if you can detect it, it doesn't pass). And since the fungicides are redundant it's not very likely that you are going to get a big cocktail of them coating your carrot is it?

In the original 17, 2 were insecticides, 4 were herbicides and 10 were fungicides. These limits apply to all food imported, as well as domestic.

Since many of these residues can be environmental, perhaps you could point us in the direction of where the organic food chemical residue limits are listed? Just so we can compare.
Posted by Bugsy, Tuesday, 10 July 2012 4:05:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Just to chime in, Bugsy make an excellent point. We're a bit like Geoff (who jumped from a ludicrous defence of Organic foods to saying he grew and ate it for lifestyle reasons) We have 45 acres (1 for us and 44 for the local flora/fauna) in Northern NSW http://menuchanechona.blogspot.com/ We're currently on sabbatical doing volunteer work in Cambodia and miss our place terribly. We grow lots of our own veggies, fruits and even kill our own chickens etc We do NOT grow our own grains, sugar etc we also collect our own water and energy and we rely on mulch from non organic sources eg sugar cane . Sure our food tastes better but as others pointed out, it's because its picked and used straight away.

This system is NOT scalable to feed the World and typically you would see about a 30% reduction if you turned to Organic growing causing food prices to sky rocket ! Current no till farming, with hybrid or GM crops where a single spray of round up is used does a marvellous job and is the only real future.

On a another note I will never understand an urban Gardner who plants say a pine tree over a Peach/Apple/Mullbery etc or who plant daises over broccoli/tomatoes etc. That people similarly don't keep 4 chooks in the back yard but will have a Cat or Dog ?

The food being thrown out is an issue but what would you have say Brumbies do, under-bake and annoy their customers ? Sure they have system in place that predict they will need 200 loves of bread, so they bake 220 (in case it's a little busier) and only sell 190, how should they change their system ? Of course I have issues with those on insisting they want out of season fruit but that's another issue.

I also think there is an issue with the growing disconnect between urbanities and their food and there is an issue with agriculture being so reliant on Oil.
Posted by Valley Guy, Saturday, 14 July 2012 3:54:30 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. ...
  6. 5
  7. 6
  8. 7
  9. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy