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The Forum > Article Comments > Is Labor the least worst? > Comments

Is Labor the least worst? : Comments

By Max Atkinson, published 6/6/2012

The Liberal Party has no commitment to fairness or equality.

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Max, Sir Robert Menzies did a good job of articulating Liberal principles, which likely still apply. From: Whither the Liberal Party? by Bill Muehlenberg, Quadrant, October 12, 2009.

"He went on to say that “Human nature is at its greatest when it combines dependence upon God with independence of man”. It is the individual, not the state, which must be promoted and applauded:

“The idea entertained by many people that, in a well-constituted world, we shall all live on the State is the quintessence of madness, for what is the State but us? We collectively must provide what we individually receive. The great vice of democracy - a vice which is exacting a bitter retribution from it at this moment - is that for a generation we have been busy getting ourselves on to the list of beneficiaries and removing ourselves from the list of contributors, as if somewhere there was somebody else's wealth and somebody else's effort on which we could thrive.”

He continued, “To discourage ambition, to envy success, to have achieved superiority, to distrust independent thought, to sneer at and impute false motives to public service - these are the maladies of modern democracy, and of Australian democracy in particular. Yet ambition, effort, thinking, and readiness to serve are not only the design and objectives of self-government but are the essential conditions of its success. If this is not so, then we had better put back the clock, and search for a benevolent autocracy once more.”

Sounds like values and principles to me.
Posted by Herbert Stencil, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 8:24:42 AM
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The vast majority of people will be voting for one or other major party on the basis of their feeling for who is the slightly less repulsive option.

Other well-meaning but naïve people will vote for a minor party or independent, not realising that with the disgusting compulsory preferential voting system, their vote will almost always end up counting for one of the two major parties, even if they specifically wish their vote to NOT count for either of them.

And practically no one will simply be submitting a blank or otherwise nullified ballot paper…. which quite frankly would be the ONLY honourable thing to do!
Posted by Ludwig, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 8:37:40 AM
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The Abbott campaign is a disgrace, how can anyone advocate coalition.
Labor are the party that governs in tough times, not liberal.
Abbott is a dangerous and disruptive agenda.
The most negative of oppositions of all times. Kennet was a mongrel, saying he will be there for the rest of the century, got voted out big time.
Abbott has the same agenda, attack the worker and take their shoes away.
Abbott is for Abbott.
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 9:10:58 AM
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@Ludwig,

<<Other well-meaning but naïve people will vote for a minor party or independent, not realizing that ...their vote will almost always end up counting for one of the two major parties>>

OR, you could look at it the other way around.
What about all those well meaning people who voted for the ALP, only to wake up the day after the election and find they had really voted for the Greens.

@ 579,

<<Labor are the party that governs in tough times, not liberal>>

Every time Labor governs it’s tough times -- tough times for the Oz populous, but boom times for people smugglers.
Posted by SPQR, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 9:21:22 AM
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'In the end John Howard lost government not so much from proved incompetence, as from the cumulative effect of policies the public found morally distasteful.'

What ignorance. After being elected 4 times people felt secure after such good governance. What they did not anticipate was the complete incompetent of Rudd followed by the complete deceit of Gillard. As far as competence is concernede Labour is far far worse. Whether it be border control, economic management or honesty they are miles ahead of Oakshott, Windsor and Gillard.
Posted by runner, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 9:48:03 AM
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No, Labor is the most worst. This author has more excuses for Gillard's behaviour than she has herself. Not a lie, but a broken promise?! More like multiple guarantees made in an expedient manner which could be broken later simply because gaining power was the only objective in the first place.

Truth and sincerity has no place in the Labor model, yet the author feels this is OK.

Apparently a lie by the Left is not really a lie. Doublespeak is alive and well.

Also, the author repeats the blind commitment to 'équality' often touted by the Left as an ideal. Yet it is indefinable and elusive and therefore never actually achieved. Its a feelgood idea with no basis.

The author is insulted and stunned that the Labor Govt is a miserable failure and is attempting to doublespeak his way out of reality.
Posted by Atman, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 10:10:39 AM
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Max, you seem to see everything with rose coloured glasses. On the issue of gay marriage, Gillard simply did a cop out. She knew the Libs would oppose it, so by allowing a free vote in parliament it was guaranteed to fail. It is just another Gillard deception.

On the issue of poker machines, it is entirely a state issue. Both Labor and Liberal state governments in NSW have supported poker machines and NSW has more poker machines than any other state. Gillard was not offering any compensation for her poker machine regulations.

Gillard always speaks in lawyer speak. What she says may not be a lie but it is certainly deceptive. When she says that the "miners don't own the minerals", she doesn't mention that the Federal government doesn't own them either. The minerals belong to the state governments and it is up to them to charge appropriate royalties.
Posted by Wattle, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 10:24:41 AM
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Can-do wants to ram approvals through without the correct balance.
He said he would take the brakes off, just as well we have a fed govt; with their head screwed on.
Get it right now or else you will end up with 5 years of court challenges. Can-do can-not do.
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 11:59:00 AM
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Labor has a proven record of incompetence in fiscal matters. Watching Labor govern is like watching a 6 year old drive a car. Possible but ugly to watch and potentially dangerous.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 12:55:39 PM
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<< What about all those well meaning people who voted for the ALP, only to wake up the day after the election and find they had really voted for the Greens. >>

Well SPQR, there’s a bit of truth in that, but only because of the unusual circumstances which gave the Greens extraordinary powers. But the government of course is still only a lightly compromised, or I should say; lightly corrected, dodgy old Labor government due to Greens’ influence!

Damn pity the Greens aren’t really green, and couldn’t have seen fit to use this amazing opportunity so really get some momentum happening towards a sustainable society, instead of just going along with never-ending very rapid population growth and hence rapidly increasing pressure on our environmental.

The Greens are hardly any better at all than the Labs, or the Libs!

But that’s another story.

Fact is that the only moral and principled vote anyone can submit is a null vote!! Because of two things – the terrible policies and performances of Labor, Liberal and the Groans! And because of the completely despicable vote-stealing antidemocratic compulsory preferential voting system!

I haven’t been able to bring myself to vote for the lesser of two or three evils for many elections. And I don’t think anyone should vote on that basis.
Posted by Ludwig, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 12:57:47 PM
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On thing I find most interesting is that when ever we get an article by some one with qualifications, or interests, in philosophy, morality, values & justice, we always find an author so capable of self delusion, that the thing becomes meaningless.

Is it only lefties who claim these interests, as they always prove to be apologists for left ideas?

They are always interested in advancing minorities, no matter how destructive of the community as a whole these may be. They are always apologists for left failures in all shape & forms. They are always in love with all trendy ideas. They are always so in sink with the latest trendy ideas, I wonder if they ever have even one idea of their own.

This piece is merely a bit of left propaganda, masquerading as a scholarly essay. It is about as valuable as the people it promotes. Totally valueless, except in that it warns us to be careful of academics bearing ideas of justice.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 1:05:06 PM
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One can agree in part with the Author. Clearly any reasonable person would understand the Gillard "promise" was entirely predicated on a labour majority govt?
I believe we could get the Major political Parties to sit up and take notice of their employers, we the people, if we simply put the incumbent at the very bottom of the voting slip, with their preference partner next.
And such a strategy would quite rapidly remove the obstinate recalcitrant extremely autocratic or quite grossly incompetent politicians from their positions of power and privilege.
Other than that, we should introduce a secret ballot, which by the way is already imposed on al the trade unions?
If it was good enough for them and so-called true democracy, then it also ought to be good enough for all our parliaments, and end forever the dirty deals done deep in the dead dark of un-impenetrable night, in back rooms, by so-called power brokers, who somehow believe they own an inherent right to usurp/trump the clearly evidenced will of the people.
Remember the Granny killing GST and Howard's promise that it would never ever be reintroduced, and then introduced against the clearly expressed majority will of the people in poll after poll?
(87% against.)
Or indeed, the almost endless non core promises made and broken in record numbers, by a patently pork barrelling coalition; and or, the liberals' country cousins, whose main claim to fame in recent years or the Howard era, has been to roll over and beg for a tummy rub, as one rural enterprise or cooperative after another, was either eliminated or made un-viable by so-called reform?
As for the so-called broken promise to Wilkie?
If every indication showed that it would'na make it through the house of reps, how is that Gillard fault or responsibility?
Andrew needs to cool down, take a deep breath and accept what is actually still possible, in a house virtually controlled by independents, with re-elections issues and apparent diminishing popular support of their own to deal with?
Rhrosty.
Posted by Rhrosty, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 1:17:56 PM
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"Remember the Granny killing GST and Howard's promise that it would never ever be reintroduced, and then introduced against the clearly expressed majority will of the people in poll after poll?
(87% against.)"

As I recall Rhrosty, Howard took the introduction of the GST to the people as part of one of his election platforms, oh and the Liberal Party won the election!

Selective memory is not always a good thing!

Geoff
Posted by Geoff of Perth, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 3:33:54 PM
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hasbeen,

i agree. what does it say about our university system that so many academics have such a tenuous grip on reality?

imagine what this country could achieve if the billions we spent on education went to academics who tried to investigate rather than obfuscate or to create rather than redistribute?
Posted by dane, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 5:33:45 PM
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Herbert Stencil, I think John Howard turned his back on Menzies' statement there when he dished out millions in middle class welfare to buy votes.

Atman, unless you can prove Gillard was planning to introduce a carbon tax, it is clearly not a lie, but a broken promise. I'm sorry, but if you think that is what constitutes a lie, you have a deficient understanding of the meaning of the word. My mate said he wouldn't damage my car when he borrowed it. Then he went and smashed my car. Did I call him a liar? Of course not, he had no intention of smashing my car, but broke his promise when he did. Of course, Alan Jones probably would have wanted him buried at sea for such a disgraceful act!

And for Liberal supporters to be accusing Labor of breaking promises and lying is just hypocrisy in the extreme. Abbott has been caught out lying on so many occasions it is beyond a joke. It is a disgrace.

HAsbeen and Dane,

Your disrespect for the opinions of educated experts in a field only reveals your ignorance. No doubt you'd be jumping behind any expert that supported your views. Funnily enough, judging by your disdain for the educated, that hasn't happened too often for you. I wonder why...
Posted by David Corbett, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 9:15:38 PM
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GST and gun control, both good reforms by the Howard Government. However pretty much all they did over eleven years of strong economic performance in which they competently managed the books and bought votes with the proceeds of the mining boom. 11 years of manufacturing decline.

Oh, sorry. I forgot WorkChoices and War.
Posted by David Corbett, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 9:20:15 PM
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From the mid-1990's to the end he Howard Government, Australia was ruled by a rotten coalition that was broader than the Liberal/National Coalition. That broader coalition also comprised much of the Labor Party.

We know this from "The Latham Diaries" of 2005. In that book Mark Latham has shown that Labor state premiers including Steve Bracks, Peter Beattie and Bob Carr deliberately sabotaged Labor's Federal election campaign in 2004 so that they could go on using Howard's misrule at the Federal level as a smokescreen to cover their own misrule at the state level.

Latham's testimony was consistent with my own previous experience with members of the Labor Party. Back in 1996 I briefly shared a house with a Labor apparatchik who stood as a candidate in the 1995 Queensland State election for Wayne Goss's Labor Party. As the newly elected Federal Howard Liberl/National Government was slashing and burning Government services on the false pretext of the supposed "Beazley Black Hole" and plotting to break the Maritime Union with mercenary strikebreakers, I remember at one social gathering how she and other members of the Queensland Labor Party sung praises for John Howard because of his stance against gun ownership ostensibly resulting from the Port Arthur Massacre -- the same John Howard who was later to take this country into the illegal 2003 invasion of Iraq which caused the death of many hundreds of thousands of Iraqis.

A major factor that allowed Howard to hold onto power for so long in spite of his obvious malevolence and ineptitude was the white-anting of Labor's electoral prospects by many of that party's faceless men.
Posted by malthusista, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 10:03:53 PM
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I would not say Labor in general, but the last almost 5 years of this Labor government is the worst in my living memory and i can hardly wait to be rid of them.

I have never seen such bungled and mismanaged lot of attempts to bring in ideological changes. Starting with Rudds increasing drasticly the immigration rate and then the softening of the border control measures to be 'more humane'. Remember about 600 died from that 'humane' effort. Record numbers of illegals are arriving.

There is a very long list of failures and mismanagement. Perhaps a competition to pick the worst stuff up? Everyone seems to have quite a few stuff ups they can refer to. Pink bats anyone?

They have spent money like drunken sailors with nothing to show for it. With borrowed monies now over $166 billion. At say 5%, the annual interest on that alone is $8300,000,000 ($8.3 Billion)

They just promised the IMF a cool $27 billion to help prop up some European countries.

The sooner this totally incompedent lot are kicked out the better.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 6 June 2012 10:33:46 PM
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Banjo,

The government is paying less than 3% on it's debt, and that will go down if there is further turmoil in europe.

The pink batts was proven to be a Coalition / media beat-up. You didn't read the results of the inquiry? It showed the deaths that occurred could not be attributed to the program, which had higher safety requirements than the State's. It also showed that the number of fires from new installations under the scheme was much, much less than fires from installations prior to the scheme.

We have one of the strongest economies in the world and one of the lowest debts in the OECD. All the key indicators are as good as they were under Howard when we were in the middle of an economic boom. Investment in mining, power etc is still continuing strong despite the fear campaigns about the carbon price.

And all of this with a minority government. I cannot see how Abbott/Hockey or anyone else could've possibly done any better
Posted by David Corbett, Thursday, 7 June 2012 8:01:59 AM
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David,

Your comment "unless you can prove Gillard was planning to introduce a carbon tax, it is clearly not a lie, but a broken promise. I'm sorry, but if you think that is what constitutes a lie, you have a deficient understanding of the meaning of the word." is at best playing with semantics. The alacrity with which Juliar abandoned her solemn promise that both she and Swan made to the Australian public just prior to the election is evidence that the promise lacked any sincerity. Any further election promises she makes cannot be believed.

The government is paying about $7-8bn p.a. on its debt. The bond rate presently is an indicator of what bonds are selling at now, not what they sold for earlier. The NDIS could be funded just from repayments. And the only reason the country is doing well is because of the huge increase in demand from China, with tax revenues from mining increasing nearly 4 fold from 2007.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 7 June 2012 9:11:49 AM
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It is well and truly a fact, we have the worlds best treasurer.
Gillard and swan are a formidable team.
AU economy at an all-time high.
Retail trade was worth more than Chinese iron ore.
The Abbott and Hockey show, continues the negative approach and talking the economy down.
How can anything so negative be any good.
Abbott has not yet won a round.
Pledges in blood, crap, no, shat happens.
Overdue for another foot in mouth disorder.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 7 June 2012 10:18:28 AM
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Banjo wrote:

"I would not say Labor in general, but the last almost 5 years of this Labor government is the worst in my living memory and i can hardly wait to be rid of them.

"...

"The sooner this totally incompetent lot are kicked out the better."

That's the same mindset that caused Australians to vote for Howard in 1996 and look where that led us:

* Howard slashing and burning services in 1996 on the pretext of the "Beazley Black Hole".

* The attempt to break the maritime union in 1998.

* The "never ever" GST after the rigged 1998 elections.

* The illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003

* The privatisation of Telstra (http://pandora.nla.gov.au/tep/45522)

* "Work Choices"

* Destruction of the Commonwealth Employment Service

* The emsaculation of Medicare

* etc, etc

Whatever can be rightly said about the way that Julia Gillard is running the country, that doesn't give Abbott the right to romp in to office and inflict tyranny on this country again as Howard did in 1996.

It's time we questioned the choices presented to us at general elections and considered voting for alternatives, such as, for example, community independent Mark M. Aldridge from South Australia (http://www.markmaldridge.com - watch the broadcast - most impressive).
Posted by malthusista, Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:31:09 AM
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malthusista,

Both you and 579 seem confused about what is your opinion and what is fact.

e.g. "the rigged 1998 elections" really, have you any proof?

"The illegal invasion of Iraq in 2003" What law was broken?

What about the carbon tax lie, The schools halls incompetence, and the pink batts disaster.

Whine Swan being declared the worlds best treasurer is like me being declared the world's fastest driver while sitting behind the wheel of a Ferrari formula I car.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 7 June 2012 11:53:47 AM
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Mr Swan is the worlds best treasurer, stated by overseas financial economists.
Banjo and SM live in the past. Pink bats [ debunked ]
Au is in sound economic management.
The people of AU are not stupid as Abbott suggests.
Abbott doesn,t even trust the AU people with money. That is so far out of it, the man is a snake, and he wants us to bye his snake oil.
I will not be voting coalition, while Abbott, Hockey, and Bishop are anywhere in site.
We seen abbott's form when he was in Howard's team. Even Costello has no confidence in Abbott, an economic illiterate.
They will wreck medibank, if they ever get a chance.
Up GST, and decimate hospitals.
This has been the noalitions agenda for decades.
Posted by 579, Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:47:17 PM
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Shadow Minister asked if I had any proof that the elections were rigged.

In a narrow legalistic sense it may be possible to deny that those elections were rigged, however well-known facts show that the 1998 elections were a perversion of proper democratic process and without that manipulation, Howard could not have been re-elected in 1998.

During his first term as Prime Minister, having promised in the 1996 elections that he had permanently scrapped any plans to ever introduce a GST, after Hewson's drubbing in 1993 for his proposal to introduce a GST, John Howard set up a Parliamentary inquiry to examine "tax reform".

One of the committee members, Paul Zammitt, resigned when he realised that it was not a true inquiry into tax reform. Instead it had been rigged to sell the "never ever" GST. Paul Zammitt reached this conclusion after he observed that members of the public, who had serious proposals for tax reform were not being given proper hearings.

Howard called an early election before the Parliament was able to examine the report. He was able to use its recommendation for the GST to promote his re-election prospects without the substance of he report having been subjected to critical scrutiny.

Howard even lost the popular vote in that election 49.02% to 50.98% (http://australianpolitics.com/elections/1998/)
Posted by malthusista, Thursday, 7 June 2012 12:55:28 PM
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My dear David Corbett, you wouldn't have a degree in a humanity would you? You do cone across as a bit of a clone of the author. That is the area where the latest thinking I believe, says no opinion can be wrong. You had better get with it hadn't you?

If the pair of you qualify as educated experts god help us. The mere fact that someone has sat in class for a few years & indulged in a bit of group think makes them more likely to be an isolated fool, rather than an expert.

Surely an expert could promote an idea, without showing them selves up as opinionated fools, trying to hide their ideology behind a bit of would be scholarly tripe.
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 7 June 2012 1:44:58 PM
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David and malthusista,
Check this list out and see how many you can dispute.

The list is becoming very widespread.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=5139#138643

Pretty good evidence of incompedence in my book
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 7 June 2012 1:56:58 PM
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Rhrosty,

The GST, far from a bad idea, has reigned-in the 'black money' economy (cash-transaction-tax-avoidance), and gotten rid of sales tax, bank transaction taxes and a range of other nibbles off the average consumer - thereby simplifying and affording greater equity and fairness. The most effective tax reform ever achieved by any government.

Changes by Lib/Coalition governments to Trust and Superannuation regulations have also squashed various rorts and tax evasion measures from 'the big end of town' - showing a genuine 'egalitarian' approach. Hawke/Keating also tackled the Pilots Union in efforts to save Ansett, and introduced a wages and prices 'freeze' - in the best interests of the economy - showing that effective business reform is not restricted to the Lib/Nats, but is dependent on conscience, vision and a determination to 'do the right thing'. The current Labor government shows no such commitment to the overall national interest - viz, 'Carbon Tax' and aiming to use returns from a 'Mining Tax' for even more 'wealth redistribution', and virtually nothing to foster development, innovation, industry and productivity on which the future of the nation is so heavily dependent (especially post the mining boom).

Malthusista,

'Breaking' the maritime unions brought essential and overdue efficiencies to the waterside, which was so full of 'rorts' that Aus had the worst record of almost any ports in the world. The deregistering of the Builders Labourers Federation (BLF) was similarly an essential reform. Today we see revelations about ineptitude and corruption in the Health Services Union (HSU) - should these be ignored? Trade Unionism just for its own sake, and without due relevance to the national interest and the common good is a 'bull in a china shop' well deserving of 'putting down', just as much as the likes of any dot.com 'pies in the sky', real estate 'scams' or Wall Street 'Ponzi schemes'.

This government, in its arrogant haste to bury 'Work Choices' (which was workable, though imperfect), has also lumbered us with an almost unworkable and heavily union-slanted debacle, grossly misnamed as 'Fair Work Australia'.

Election - bring it on!
Posted by Saltpetre, Thursday, 7 June 2012 2:01:18 PM
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Banjo your book of stuff-ups as you say has shaped an economy into what it is today. An excellent example of what an economy should look like.
As the noalition is best at, negativity it is no wonder Abbott and his team of bandits, are in a hurry for an election.
If Turnbull was the in man i would be persuaded to vote coalition.
Never in a million years anyone with any scruples, vote for Abbott.
A man with no conviction, a woman hater, an incompetent economist, a religious fanatic, and an as-hole
Posted by 579, Thursday, 7 June 2012 3:41:36 PM
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579,

Don't make me laugh. Labor has done no shaping other than incurring nearly $200bn in debt.

Mal,

From you claims that the vote was rigged, I see a long justification, which does not mention rigging of the voting system. All I see is innuendo and conjecture that the coalition manipulated the parliamentary tax inquiry, before taking the GST to an election. Compared to the blatant carbon tax lie designed to fool the electorate that Labor wouldn't foist an unpopular tax on them, the handling of the GST was above board.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 7 June 2012 4:10:19 PM
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Banjo,

I read your list.

Essentially a list of media beat-ups.

I could come up with a similar list on Howard/Costello. But I really only have to mention the woeful WorkChoices policy and the deaths of thousands of innocents in Iraq. If there ever was a bad policy choice, invading a country against the will of the UN, killing thousands of its citizens and then finding you really had no justifiable reason to do it was it. Makes your "PINK BATTS PINK BATTS" screechings seem a trifle petty.

LIES about AWB, lies about children overboard. Failure on the manufacturing industry. Middle class welfare. Failure on infrastructure. Failure on health and education. Housing unaffordability etc etc etc.

But these are all such petty things. Not every well-meaning policy is going to be successful, and corruption is going to exist in all governments. At the end of the day, how is the country being run overall? Are people getting jobs, are real wages rising, are health and living standards improving, is education improving, are we planning for the future, are we looking after our neighbours etc etc. At the moment all these things are happening.

These are things that actually matter, not who said what when and where. The economy is thriving under this Government. The opposition have shown they are incompetent when it comes to balancing budgets and understanding the economy. Their leader has also shown to be a big time liar, much more than the government. Why anyone would want to change is beyond me.
Posted by David Corbett, Thursday, 7 June 2012 4:52:58 PM
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David:

"I could come up with a similar list on Howard/Costello." I bet you can't.

Juliar's carbon tax lie was the biggest in last few decades. As for why we should ditch the present government, the litany of corrupt Labor MPs, the vast gap between the espoused labor values and the government's actions, etc. Banjo's list is just the start.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Thursday, 7 June 2012 6:01:51 PM
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Twenty three days and the worlds biggest Carbon Tax will be among us.
Banjo's list is in the wild, propped up by the australian news paper.
Channel nine are having trouble bying a story about the life and times of a prostitute.
A gallery of gilahs on the opposition, dribbling tripe.
Armed with Banjo's list, and Costello's informed remarks.
Abbott facing 6-12 in jail.
Who will lead the party.
Turnbull of course.
Excellent economics on the table. Strongest prime minister ever. Best treasurer in the world. Employment strong. Pensioners looked after. Child-care being recreated. Welfare where needed. Australia is very strong, and in no danger of defaulting any time soon. Who would want to change.
Posted by 579, Friday, 8 June 2012 12:42:17 PM
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The mindset of those on either side of the 'debate' between uncritical supporters of the Labor on one side and uncritical supporters of the Liberal/National coalition on the other side is that as long as we can find fault with the other side we don't have to concern ourselves with fault on our side.

People who want decent representation from their elected representatives won't get it from either side. They should look for alternatives from people like Mark Aldridge (http://www.markmaldridge.com) as I mentioned earlier.

Saltpetre wrote:

"'Breaking' the maritime unions brought essential and overdue efficiencies to the waterside, ... rant, rant, ..."
The Maritime Workers Union wasn't broken. He failed becasue broader public opinion supports trade unionism.

No doubt Saltpetre considers any environment where work is performed at a civilised pace and workers paid decent rates of pay as 'inefficient'.

I would have though that manual workers were entitled to get something from the technological gains of recent decades.

Evidently, Saltpetre doesn't agree.
Posted by malthusista, Friday, 8 June 2012 5:41:00 PM
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>>..work at a civilised pace<<, malthusista?? - Do you mean the guys playing cards in the tea room during work time? Or the guys on the sly-list taking a work day off and having their mates sign them on and off? Does the FACT that Oz ports were amongst the most in-efficient in the world not tell you something? A fair day's work for a fair day's pay - you've got to be joking - fair suck of the sav!

It sounds as though you despise anyone who has a desk job and never gets 'down and dirty'. Never let working hard at getting a good education stand in the way of your definition of 'work'. Envy is one thing, but outright sabotage is quite another.

And, as for the BLF, try the word 'blackmail', or 'organised criminal activity'.

Facts are always a poor substitute for envy and prejudice, and a selective memory is a handy weapon against ever facing reality and the obvious truth.
Posted by Saltpetre, Saturday, 9 June 2012 12:10:36 PM
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Unlike the case with Saltpetre, my world view does not include simplistic schemas in which either an employer can do no wrong or a worker can do no wrong.

If Saltpetre had read my post on the other forum "The Leveson Inquiry: what a lovely game" at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=13696&page=0#237184 :

"The CIA's meddling in Australia is strikingly similar to its meddling in British Guiana from 1953 until 1964 against the elected governments of Cheddi Jagan (ch 16). There the CIA used its influence in the union movement to foment labour unrest to destabilise Cheddi Jagan. ("Left wing" orthodoxy, BTW, holds such unrest to be the consequence of trade unions always being more revolutionary than 'reformist' governments. It's obvious that in Australia under the Whitlam government they were not.)"

... he would know that my world view does not include the simplistic schema that he has attempted to attribute to me.
Posted by malthusista, Saturday, 9 June 2012 3:58:30 PM
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