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The Forum > Article Comments > Vaccination: objections to your conscientious objection > Comments

Vaccination: objections to your conscientious objection : Comments

By Martin Bouckaert, published 9/5/2012

What happens when the doctor refuses to sign the conscientious objector’s form?

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Dear Poirot,

You are making the dangerous assumption as if everyone has (or should have) the same values and goals for life, and even in the same order of priorities.

I would agree with you that it is contemptible for such a person whose top priority is the desire to avoid the chance of epidemics to cower under the herd-immunity. You must realize however, that different people have other priorities for which they are even willing to risk disease and death.

It would be futile to list here all the possible different values that people may have, but just as an example, some believe that the body is the temple of the soul and must be kept pure and clean of unnatural substances in order to be fit for its proper spiritual purpose. Should death occur while maintaining the body's purity, one will obtain a purer body in their next lifetime, but should the body be contaminated, one would then stray from the path so it would be preferable for them if they died instead.

Dear Enochthered,

I totally agree with your post, except for using the term "vaccination denialists". I don't think there are too many who deny the scientific evidence about the effectiveness of vaccinations for their designated purposes, but as I just explained to Poirot, different people have different values, not necessarily to preserve their (or their child's) biological life at all costs.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 10:58:26 PM
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Yuyutsu, There are some things that we need to do for the safety of society.

Things like obey the road rules, people cannot choose what side of the road to drive on, if they did death injury and chaos would ensue.

No one is, as you say "being assaulted with a needle and harmful substances?"

What is happening is the community is protecting itself against mass disease death injury and chaos.

Yes we still have a death toll on our roads, Yes we still have the occasional ill effect from vaccination and even very rare deaths but the greater good is that more children ( including your children ) have a better chance of survival.

If vaccination were harmful why would doctors vaccinate their own children and themselves ? Nurses too, all health care profesionals I know insist that their children's vaccinations are up to date and keep their own vaccinations up to date.

If there was some deep dark secret poison lurking in vaccines do you really think doctors and nurses would inject children including their own ?

While I am sure you have been convinced of your beliefs I find it difficult to believe you have ever really explored both sides of the issues involved fairly, rationally and evenly.

May I suggest you do some independent research, not on the web but contact your nursing union and ask how many of their members vaccinate their children.

Ask your local doctors surgery if they vaccinate their children.

It is not a conspiracy it is the truth vaccinations save lives, if you had ever seen polio diphtheria or whooping cough perhaps you would have a better understanding of this concept.
Posted by Dug, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:02:55 PM
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Yuyutsu,

"deeming" what is best for another *without* following the scientific evidence is not *deeming*, it is not judgement, it is not the use of any critical or analytical faculty.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:11:42 PM
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Yuyutsu,

"...different people have other priorities for which they are even willing to risk disease and death."

Well that's just dandy if it's merely that their disease and death are in isolation. Decisions of the kind to "not necessarily preserve their (or their child's) biological life at all costs" are not in isolation if that decision impacts the rest of the community.

When whole societies are put at risk because a section of the herd chooses not to partake of the immunity on offer to counter communicable disease, then the herd is imperilled - as we are seeing at the moment in WA with a whooping cough epidemic.
Posted by Poirot, Wednesday, 9 May 2012 11:22:22 PM
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Dear Dug,

<<There are some things that we need to do for the safety of society>>

Who are "we"? Please speak for yourself!

What makes you assume that everyone else is dying to have a society with you, on your own terms of course?

<<What is happening is the community is protecting itself against mass disease death injury and chaos>>

What is happening is that some people, including certain members of OLO, have such strong ambitions for a community that they have no second thought about physically injuring others in order to achieve those ambitions. Fortunately, I am told that the law is not on their side for the moment.

<<but the greater good is that more children (including your children) have a better chance of survival>>

Again, please speak for yourself and not for my children. It seems to be part of your belief-system that survival and human numbers equal goodness. Not mine.

<<If vaccination were harmful than why would doctors vaccinate their own children...>>

I suppose because most doctors share similar views as yourself, considering the sustenance of biological life as top priority. It is doctors' job to sustain biological lives, so they know the technology. I never doubted the scientific findings (this thread is the first time I hear about "conspiracy"), however the question whether or not to vaccinate is a question of values, not a scientific one, including spiritual values which science has no way to discern.

Dear Rusty,

Why should one follow scientific evidence on matters that are not scientific?

The only thing medical-science can tell is how to increase the chances of biological survival, but when considering what's best for another, the survival of their biological body is only one consideration among many.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 10 May 2012 2:07:41 PM
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Clearly there are objectors regarding vaccinations, as there are across a whole range of issues.

Ultimately, I suspect that when it comes to certain diseases, it is reasonable to assume that "deprivation of liberty" or suspension of "legal capacity" to minimise the risk to the majority is also reasonable, but not something to be done lightly.

As to risk though, whilst I am happy to be corrected, I believe there are some vaccines which do come with certain risks. Certainly, a number of doctors I know all raised their eyebrows when I announced that I was off for rabies shots pre travel to Indonesia. And regarding that, why they let people travel without insisting on relevant shots, appropriate insurance and a reading of the smart traveler recommendations is madness to me.

And speaking of madness, once an individual is reasonably suspected of having certain conditions, and as a consequence considered to be a possible risk to themselves or others, if non-compliant with a proposed treatment or diagnostic process, certainly in some states results in the police on their property without so much as a by your leave, or explanation of their activities, or even a declaration of their identity, to be unceremoniously hauled off in the back of a paddy wagon and slung into the locked ward and forcibly treated.

Thus *Yuyutsu* there are indeed exceptions to the law visa vi your ideals, have no doubts about it.

But back to vaccinations, when considering the population as a whole, I believe their is a tiny percent of individuals who do have adverse reactions, and a tiny percent of those cases which can lead to some form of impairment, disability or even death. Of course, I am not aware that our medical science is able to predict this, or if even standard pre vaccination allergy tests for example are even conducted.

To say that this is only a tiny risk to everyone is of course to misunderstand statistics, as some individuals, and without us knowing, will either have a 0% chance of this or alternatively a 100% chance.
Posted by DreamOn, Thursday, 10 May 2012 3:32:31 PM
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