Hi Keith,

Once again, we are not disagreeing about much.

Regarding fiscal conservatism and prices, economists believe economic management is where Rudd/Gillard/Swan are best in the world – according to the ten key indicators.

So including these in a discussion on lies is perhaps a category error.

Regarding categories, I have asked here and elsewhere for examples of Labor leaders delivering straightforward, direct, looking-down-the-camera falsehoods like those, linked above, from Mr Abbott. None forthcoming.

If we call these class A falsehoods, we could characterise all other truth issues by class.

Promises broken for political expediency with no external factors forcing their abandonment could be class B. Examples are Ms Gillard dudding Mr Wilkie recently. And Mr Howard’s no-GST-never-ever which he abandoned before the 1998 election.

A class B broken promise may, of course, be ratified by an election. If this succeeds, as indeed happened with Mr Howard and the GST, then it becomes less offensive. Say class C.

Commitments made in good faith but prevented from being implemented despite the government’s genuine best efforts – by a hostile Senate or the High Court or a hung Parliament – could be class D.

Promises prevented from being implemented by changed economic conditions – such as Paul Keating’s L-A-W-law tax cuts – could be class E.

Promises deferred by changed economic or political conditions – such as Labor’s no carbon tax – could be class F. (Keating’s L-A-W tax cuts also turned out to be F eventually.)

Assurances of loyalty to the leader by putative challengers, as suggested earlier, deserve a special category. Say class I. (I for inevitable? Inavoidable?)

Now, here’s the extraordinary thing. When we count these for all past party leaders, we find the ALP has far lower numbers than the Liberals. And among Labor leaders, Ms Gillard’s numbers are lowest of all.

So why the current bizarre false perception Downunder?

Well, It’s not really that hard to figure. As suggested in the article, the mainstream media routinely distorts, misprepresents and fabricates.

This, it seems, is Australia’s doom for as long as its citizens do nothing to change this.

Alan

If you want to change the widespread perceptionn of Labor as dishonest, once again you won't do it by saying, 'labor isn't as bad as all the others have been' and 'it's all the media's fault'. Again here in Australia you'll be laughed at. They are akin to Labor's strategy of 'blame Tony for everything'. That strategy is now starting to backfire badly. Abbott's hit the front in the preferred PM ratings.

The latest two party prefered for the upcoming Qld election was released today. 60% to 40%. Labor's primary 30%. Some predict less than a dozen Labor MPs in Qld. Kevvy is campaigning hard here. Julia's noticable by her absence. I reckon she is away clinging onto power somewhere.

Yes we disagree about little. One of our key but unspoken differences is that you believe all politicians lie, I don't and nor do the majority of Australian electors. The relatively smallish informal vote attests to that. I also only ever hear labor figures or sympathisers run that line as well. It's just another strategy to try to minimse and sanitise the widespread perception of Labor deceipt. Like the other attempts, which you've repeated here, it justs adds to the perception, as it's just seen as another attempt at spin.

Sorry, Labor's primary ... 24%.

Has anyone noticed that Anna, is starting to sound as shrill, & viscous as Julia as her election approaches? I think it is starting to hurt her, as she looks a bit like Julia

I have never thought of her as competent, particularly after the health care pay chaos, but always thought her as one of our more decent politicians. She is certainly making sure I correct that misconception with her present behaviour.

It appears nothing is too low for for a Labor polly where holding on to power is concerned.

Hi again Keith,

Further info on the ALP review here:
http://www.alp.org.au/getattachment/3cf99afc-d393-4be3-b33c-7afbd6235ccc/review2010/

Or just google ALP 2010 review.

No, not true at all to say “One of our key but unspoken differences is that you believe all politicians lie ...”

I don’t believe that at all. I have never heard a direct lie from Tim Fischer, Julia Gillard, Malcolm Turnbull, Bob Brown, Kevin Rudd or Warren Truss, to name just six past or present party leaders.

Yes, a few changes of position and unfulfilled promises from all of them, except Bob Brown. But not direct class A lies like those from Tony Abbott linked earlier, or from John Howard, for whom many examples are available. Remember, it was a Senator from his own side who labelled Mr Howard “the Lying Rodent”.

It is not at all objectively true to say all politicians lie. Howard and Abbott seem to be in a special class of their own, as demonstrated clearly for Mr Abbott here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tc5ljcri6Nk

Nothing at all unspoken about my views on lying. See above.

The popularity polls are not really relevant to this discussion, are they? The latest job numbers are. They have much greater impact on the wellbeing of Australian people. I wonder if they got the same media attention?

Cheers, AA

Alan tell me where I can get some of those glasses mate, it must be heaven wearing them.

Mate I don't give a dam if you call them a direct lie, or inferred lie, or just not answering the question, It is Labor who are the experts. Even Richo says so.

Just what is, "there will be no carbon tax in a government I lead" sound like if not a lie.

Hang on, perhaps I've got it. She's done no leading, Bob Brown has done it all. Does that make it less of a lie.

If you can rationalise that one it makes you not a commentator, but an activists.