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The Forum > Article Comments > The IR conundrum: society or economy? > Comments

The IR conundrum: society or economy? : Comments

By Tim Martyn, published 15/11/2005

Tim Martyn argues there is a trade off between society and the economy with Australia's new industrial relations laws.

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Shonga you obviously have no idea about economics. The worker and employer will work out what the price of labour will be.
If an employer is willing to pay $10 an hour and no-one is willing to accept that - they will have no employees. Conversely, if an employee thinks they should earn $20 but no employer will pay them that much, they will not have a job.
Then along comes supply and demand and the two parties may settle on say $15 an hour. Boss has worker and worker has job. Win-win. it is called a market - M.A.R.K.E.T.
It is the same thing which applies to the CEOs you so despise. If a company wants the best, they have to offer good wages - it may be over the top but if you pay them only $100,000 they would quickly find a job with another company or in another country. And the company loses out.
The report in Fin Review the other day on executive salaries showed those on the biggest packages generally had lifted the revenues of the business. of course there are exceptions, but it is still a market. If you don't like it - transfer to a superannuation company which only invests in companies which pay peanuts to executives (and enjoy a poor retirement ;0)

As for me in my ivory tower - not likely. A single level, former housing commission dwelling in the suburbs is my usual residence. You know, the kind of place you can chat over the back fence to a neighbour about how lucky we are (not your vitriolic jealousy in another thread where you wish a businessman went bankrupt to teach him a lesson).

Edward Carson - don't say that too loudly - remember the unions believe workers are stupid and can no way make a decision about their lives such as how much money they need (and how much should end up in the pocket of Mr Combet who probably earns more than the PM).

Leigh - The McConvill article was great, as mentioned in another thread.

t.u.s.
Posted by the usual suspect, Thursday, 17 November 2005 2:42:00 PM
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There are many problems concerning the future of people and society in a globalised world that is centered around increasing the efficiency of resource distribution.

In relation to Economics one can take the opinion that more resources for everyone is advantageous. However, that is provided that the market for world resources functions in a way that maximises the efficiency of these resources and that they are free from exploitation. This means that we have to rely on the honesty, compassion, and integrity of organisational owners and the government.

For some people in undeveloped countries and not so fortunate circumstances this optimistic and positive perception is under strain. Would you believe that in some underdeveloped countries there are perpetual cycles of child labour that communities are unable to break.

One may take the opinion that globalised trade benefits these communities where child labour practices flourish and that it enables them to develop into a fairer society. However, it is evident that the competition for global labour across underdeveloped nations (such as India, China, Africa and others) actually fuels the demand for cheaper exploitative labour and perpetuates an endless cycle of poverty lacking basic human rights that people in developed countries cherish.

I concede that industrial relation reform is unavoidable if Australian organisations are to survive in the global economy. However, I can not see how we can compete against underdeveloped countries that have economies based on exploitative labour practices and allow deplorable human right violations to continue (sale and trafficking of children, drug trafficking or illegal activities, slavery, forced labour, forced recruitment in armed conflict, prostitution, debt bondage).

I believe the real problem lies in mandating higher standards for people in poorer communities and to ensure that child labour is stamped out. Only after fairer conditions exist in the poorest communities of the world will we be able to realise an optimistic view of the future labour conditions in developed countries such as Australia.

Insight into how we can improve these conditions for poor people can be gained from the International Labour Organisation’s website http://www.ilo.org/.
Posted by welshmiester, Thursday, 17 November 2005 5:02:00 PM
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What distresses me most about the current IR debate are the statements that Australia has historically low levels of unemployment and Australia's unemployment is lower than Germanys. Well folks this is a lie. In Australia you are deemed to be "employed if you have an hour of paid or unpaid work in the survey period". In Germany you are unemployed if you have less than 15 hours paid work a week.

In Germany I would be classed as unemployed, in Australia I am classed as employed because I average one day's work a fortnight. At the national day of protest I was told its quite common for people to apply for jobs, be told they are hired, then they have to wait around for a roster.

Oh, how much notice do I get of a shift, just enough time to drop every thing and drive to work so I keep my tools and work clothes in my car. Not a good reward for a skilled worker doing a skilled job for which I require qualifications and police checks.

The IR reforms will increase the stampede to casualise work and reduce living standards for Australian workers.

It is very soul destroying for people who do not work, your self esteem is lowered, if you are waiting for a roster you actually can't plan anything and you are socially isolated because its cheaper to stay home than it is to go to the movies, shopping centre or through museums.

Why is it important to fire 8,000 effective full time Telstra employees, probably 14,000 jobs and send the work to India. The Telstra employees who will be retrenched are skilled trained workers who have survived previous downsizing campaigns - so they are unlikely to be "dead wood".
Posted by billie, Thursday, 17 November 2005 5:09:04 PM
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I hate the proposed IR changes, I hate what they are destined to do to the social fabric of our country, and most of all I hate John Howard. He must have been the one they all bullied at school, because he lacked team spirit, always keeping aloof, and talking down to everyone in a pathetic, whining voice that made them beat him up even more. The IR law changes will hurt everyone, and that's fine. We live in a democracy, ruled by majority decision. How many of those carrying the Southern Cross flags and calling for national strike action voted conservative at the last and previous federal elections? Many more than you would imagine. Enough to deliver government to that myopic, diminutive imbicile and his nose-to-bum followers. The born-again Treasurer, and the cross-dresser Foreign Minister. A hefty number of card-carrying unionists voted for them, because of the mere suggestion that a Labor government might raise interest rates. This despite the conservatives' political philosophy, despite the lies they have told us in the past, and the threats they posed. Now they intend to implement those threats, and I say yes! shove them in and make them hurt, because that's the only way the greedy, self-interested, cowardly bastards hiding amongst us in the protest marches will ever learn. We all have to suffer before the opportunists among us realise that the coalition government has no interest in us, or our future well-being. They are lackeys of overseas interests, big business, oil magnates. We have the ability to become self-sufficient in energy resources, but our economy remains tied to the price of a barrell of oil in Texas. We'll never break free while the status quo remains, but first we have to suffer so some of us can learn. Enough time before the next election for the lesson to sink in. Time enough also, I hope, for the ALP to realise Julia Gillard is the engine, while Kim Beazley is the anchor. The message is, 'stop trying to kick-start the anchor, dummies.'
Posted by astralentity, Thursday, 17 November 2005 5:38:23 PM
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Prior to Thatcherism in England in the 1980s, England's GDP was said to on path to becoming equal to that of Albania. At one time, England even had to borrow substantial amounts of money from Saudi Arabia to meet its foreign debt obligations. With the changes she put in place including the establishment of a flexible labour force with a low minimum wage and low taxes, England is now I think the second richest country in Europe.
Posted by SL, Thursday, 17 November 2005 7:48:36 PM
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t.u.s Well you certainly are an interesting character, I respect your right to your opinion, and wish I could have as much faith in M-A-R-K-E-T F-O-R-C-E-S as you do, I find it amusing that your ivory tower is a housing commission home, which means to me, that I am far better off than you are, yet here you are defending the millionaires, a catergory of person, to wich you obviouly don't belong, and probably never will. I have been a toiler all my life, and have saved for the things I have, a foriegn concept to many, as shown by our massive overseas debt, people can no longer earn enough in wages to save, but as you say that's the M-A-R-K-E-T, so as our Nation slowly sinks into international debt, and the ship goes down, we will find you proudly at the helm, playing the "last post" and thumpeting those great "market forces" that led us down this path, I wish you well in your obvious ignorance.I am so glad you are well versed in economic matters, you are our once great nation's future....frightening....
Posted by SHONGA, Friday, 18 November 2005 1:30:29 AM
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