"Ok Bob M, so how much do Singapore Airlines, Cathay and Emirates
pilots earn and are their planes falling out of the sky?"

Ok Yabby I'll answer that:

Cathay and Emirates pay similar salaries to Qantas, but also provide housing for pilots and Emirates provides medical allowances and education for a pilot's children. This means they are ahead of the QF pilots at the end of the day. Both airlines safety standards are excellent (although they do have slip ups, like EK407 and SQ006, do some research on these). But these are not the standards qantas pilots are fighting against.

They powers that be want to change Qantas's operational standards and pay to something akin to Garuda (which killed 5 australians in a crash in 2007), Lion Air (they've had 4 runway overuns in the past year) or Air India (fake pilots anyone?). Do some research on these companies to see what QF might look like in the future.

QF Pilots know that if they want to make money they head overseas to one of the big middle east/asian carriers. Most of them choose not to and stay with qantas because they are proud of it's position in austalian history and culture, but if they feel there is no future, they will leave and take there highly desired skills to other carriers. This is what managers should be afraid of

Qf pilots offered between 17-22% gains in efficiency and productivity (that would have seen some pilots take paycuts, and others go to jetstar for much less pay) and all they asked for was a guarantee that they would be flying the new airliners that qantas had ordered, on this reduced pay/increased hours contract. For a company that had just announced a $500 million profit, this would have been a major bonus for managers but still they chose to ignore it, and the only thing the pilots did was to wear red ties and make pa's in response. Ok they may have been repetitive but at least they wished no ill harm to anyone and didn't disrupt any passengers.

I'm not opposed to executives making modest bonuses when things are good, but if Alan Joyce wants his staff to to share the pain he should lead from the top. His troops are very willing to make some cuts to go along with him, so please stop this "greedy pilots" nonsense.

And Bob M, btw your first post was very correct, but the salary figures are slightly wrong. Most upgrades in qantas now happen on the short haul contract, where f/o pay is around $105 000 per year (less than an unskilled fly in fly out miner) and captains around $170-180 (less than a qualified surgeon after a comparable amount of study and experience)

And Yabby,

My sources indicate that although RAAF trained pilots in the past made up a larger intake of QF pilots, nowadays they would be around 5-10% of the new intakes. RAAF pilots do have a long return of service obligation where they must stay with the air force before they are free to join an airline.

The majority of pilots would have, like Bob M has said, come through general aviation and outback flying where the pay is lower (appartently some pilots in the NT and northern WA makes less than $30k per year, most regional first officers are on about $35 - $55 000 per year) and the aircraft and environment is more dangerous. Intial flying training cost about $50-70 000 minimum for a cpl (most need much more), around $ 15-20000 for a mandatory instrument rating, $10-15000 for mandatory theory training and anywhere between $10-30000 for other endorsements or hours needed to get that crucial first job. Most companies now charge for retraining on new aircraft as well, and this can be between $10-45000 up front. All these costs have to be paid up front, only a very small proportion of the new pilots have access to HECS through a university course, the majority are self funded.

Oh and Mr Compton, Hudson Fysh was courageous and had tenacity and vision, he was also a pilot, maybe QF should really follow in his footsteps ;)

JPS, what they pay Joyce, frankly does not matter in the bigger
scheme of things, if he gets results. I understand his bonus will
only be paid if he does. Shareholders have been the big losers in
the Qantas saga, the company has largely existed for the benefit of
its employees for a few years. Divide Joyce's salary by 35'000
employees and even if he worked for nothing, it would add little
more then 20 bucks a week to anyone's salary, so really does not
matter.

At the end of the day, consumers are going to decide all this. At
the moment, I gather on international routes, something like 80% choose
not to fly Qantas. I don't blame the pilots, but frankly
your TWU and engineers unions are not exactly helping Qantas gain
sales. If ever I've seen unions help to destroy their workplace,
its them.

If Qantas International is losing 200 million a year, then management
has to take action and change direction. That is their job. Jetstar
is one way to do it. I really don't see why Qantas pilots should
decide how much Jetstar pilots are paid, for Jetstar is based in
Singapore, its only part owned by Qantas.

Pilots are only one spoke in this wheel. In all my dealings with
Qantas, I never got the opinion that staff cared too much. Everyone
was busy feathering their own nest as best as possible. Unless
there is a large change in all employee attitudes, Qantas will
follow Ansett down the gurgler.

Given the giveaway Qantas share price, with mums and dads who believed
the spin having lost their shirts, perhaps the 35'000 Qantas employees
should buy the company. Then they would have a reason to
make it work, their super would be on the line.

Unions cannot demand job security for years, as consumers will fly
with whomever they want

There is one prime reason that Qantas is supposedly losing $200 million on international routes.

All their competitors, Emirates, Etihad, Qatar, Singapore Airlines, Cathay Pacific, Malaysian Airlines, Air China, China Southern, JAL, ANA, Jet Airways, British Airways, EVA Air, Korean, Philippine Airways, Royal Brunei, Vietnam Airways, Thai International, Asiana, Air Austral, the new Scoot carrier, Air New Zealand, Delta, Air Canada and even Virgin Australia have one big advantage that Qantas doesn't. They all operate the Boeing 777 as the backbone of their long haul fleet. This aircraft is so efficient it carries 90% of a Boeing 747 passenger load at 60% of the fuel burn, and fuel is by far and away the largest cost for an airline.

As much as passengers love the A380, the simple fact is that even it cant match the 777's seat mile costs. The new Boeing 787-8 that the Qantas group has ordered for Jetstar looks like it won't be able to meet its advertised fuel burn/payload performace, leading Emirates only weeks ago to order 50 Boeing 777-300ER's. It has been calculated that if the 777 made up the backbone of the Qantas fleet instead of the 747, the $200m loss would become a $250m profit. C'mon Qantas it's not too late to order them, even Geoff Dixon now admits it was a mistake not to.