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The Forum > Article Comments > Why are we miserable? > Comments

Why are we miserable? : Comments

By John Ness, published 28/11/2011

We are currently in the midst of a paradigm shift that affects not only our belief system but also how we live.

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Nice article. The middle class is undoubtedly "being hollowed out" by tax systems that have been delivering unearned economic rents of land and natural resources (some 50% of the economy) to the 1%.

To what extent are the economic boffins in the USA and Europe trying to address this ruinous pathology? Not at all. It's much too hard. The easier options, neither of which can possibly work, are creating more US debt to solve its problem of excessive debt [!], or wearing a European hair shirt. How higher taxes and less dollars in the hands of the Irish, Greeks, etc., will ever resurrect their economies is quite beyond me.

We've come to a crossroads, and capturing more coal and iron mining rent for Australians, and less arbitrary taxation on doers, as recommended by Ken Henry's panel has been a very small step in the right direction.
Posted by freddington, Monday, 28 November 2011 9:27:31 AM
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[Deleted for abuse.]
Posted by DavidL, Monday, 28 November 2011 9:31:18 AM
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I thought that this forum had strict rules about flaming and verbally abusing the authors that are featured on this forum.
Surely the comment by DavidL fits into this category.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Monday, 28 November 2011 9:49:08 AM
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Duffy Duck,

OLO does an exellent job in letting us know every opinion if we like it or not.
Posted by skeptic, Monday, 28 November 2011 10:09:16 AM
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What is there to be miserable about, we are doing just fine, arn't we. It is out of mine or your control, so be happy.
Posted by 579, Monday, 28 November 2011 10:17:52 AM
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Daffy D. - I'm not the moderator but I would have thought David L.'s comments boarderline acceptable, albeit unhelpful.

What can be said is that Ness's article is long on generalisations but short on specifics. He wants to change a system that has stood us in reasonably good stead for many decades, without saying what it should be changed into, or how we can even begin to go about it.

Financial self interest is a very powerful force in the universe. To persuade people that really they shouldn't be concerned with improving their financial lot is akin to telling them that they should reject their mothers. Before we even begin to take writers like Hess seriously, they should start proposing proper solutions.. whatever they may be..
Posted by Curmudgeon, Monday, 28 November 2011 10:18:15 AM
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Just a cotton-pickin' minute.

"So, what is driving the discontent in Australia?"

Before you pose such a question, Mr Ness, you are supposed to identify that there is, in fact, discontent in Australia. I noticed that you had avoided this necessary step, both in the absolute - e.g., "90% of Australians are dicontented", and in the relative - "survey says, more Australians are discontented than ever before".

As a result, you are talking to the wall, when you ask:

"Is it this decline in religion that is correlated with a feeling of malaise, despair and in some sectors, anger?"

This is journalism at its lowest ebb. Not only are you manufacturing an issue using emotive words and expressions, and dragging in religion, the media, class warfare, demographics and "energy" along the way.

But also, you are saying nothing of value or interest while doing so. Even your proposed "solution" is trivial, teenage stuff:

"...the economic system must be based on and measured by the use of energy and the production of entropy as an empirical quantification of which system should be adopted."

Yeah, right.

I challenge you to explain that in words that actually mean something, rather than construct a sentence that performs as an active inhibitor to meaningful communication.

Pshaw.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 28 November 2011 10:32:04 AM
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This article sums up the present situation very well.

The comment by DavidL shows that he doesn't understand enough about resources, chemistry, metallurgy or economics.

Whilever intelligent animals exist they will need fossil carbon to produce metals and chemicals. At present rates of consumption coal and other fossil fuels and feedstocks will be exhausted within a four or five generations.

Wind or solar power isn't the answer. Without carbon 150 years or so from now, the then citizens will not be able to produce the reinforced concrete and the metals necessary for the production of replacement equipment.

With conservation of fossil carbon and use of thorium and fast breeder uranium reactors, fuel for electricity would be available for the next 50,000 years at least.

The tax system needs rectification. No ones brain effort is worth the present multiples enjoyed by those who use their brains, or monkey cunning, compared to those who contribute by physical effort.
Posted by Foyle, Monday, 28 November 2011 10:36:10 AM
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The author writes with such authority

'The world is such a wonderful place because we have had over 3 billion years of the most primitive life forms taking energy from the sun and changing the atmosphere into a stable, oxygen rich one with very effective feedback mechanisms that keep the system stable.'

And the next chapter of the fairy tale is? To think that people are so dumbed down to accept such ardent statements as fact without questions shows how much we have devolved in our thinking. Only those totally blinded by evolution dogma fail to see the Great Designer of this planet.

The reason so many are miserable and addidcted to anti depressants is simply because the god deniers have had their dogmas implemented into society. It has led to depression, family breakdown, child abuse and drug addiction.

Someone who describes the past so inaccurately as the author has little chance of offering answers for the future.
Posted by runner, Monday, 28 November 2011 11:26:42 AM
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Misery? What misery??

I am happy, and so are most people I know. Thanks be to God!

But if you feel gloomy, John, better stay out of the following which can never give you happiness: The media; economics; and politics.

And PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, get a life and don't depress us with your new paradigms.

---

One avenue which you may like to try is the joy of numbers - you'll also be surprised how many new friends you can find in an arithmetic refreshment course:

95 - 11*3 = 62
1/3 is 33.333%

So 62% is 86% more, nearly double, what you worked out. Better luck next time, math is fascinating, way beyond the social studies that give you depression - go out and enjoy!
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 28 November 2011 11:30:41 AM
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Daffy, given the nature of the site posts such as that go up and if drawn to the attention of the moderator are removed if found to be in breach of the rules. It's not a site where comments are reviewed before becoming visible nor is the editoral staffing overly large.

Simplest thing to do is to use the X under a post which you believe breaches the rules to recommend it for deletion.

On topic I'm not miserable. I am fed up with governments plundering my pay packet to hand out my income to others who choose not to work for it for causes which I may or may not agree with. Happy to pay taxes to keep the basics going but don't believe that any government should be able to give my income to others in the way that recent governments have become very fond of doing.

I can still be happy and enjoy life along the way. I can still accept that I live in a great country, that life is good and be able to think that we could do even better. I can love my life and the country I live in without needing to accept that the actions of the government or others are well founded or reasonable.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Monday, 28 November 2011 11:30:58 AM
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Hi, I've removed the comment by DavidL. Robert's basically said it all for me. If I don't know about a comment I can't deal with it. I do not have time to read threads all day, so they are dealt with when I find out about them. Thanks to the person who alerted me to this one by clicking on the red cross in the bottom left-hand corner of the comment.

Graham Young
Moderator
Posted by GrahamY, Monday, 28 November 2011 11:50:54 AM
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"It is clear that the size and extent of global energy use, which has provided the sub structure for the huge world population and for the high material living standards of maybe 20%, cannot continue as it cannot deliver comparable living standards to the other 80%, or advance or even retain the standards of the privileged 20%.

The depletion of resources, the destruction of the complex biological environment and its inhabitants and the altering of the dynamics of the atmosphere and oceans are now well established."

It's certainly not clear to me, nor do I see that your second claim is 'well established'. Perhaps next time you could provide some evidence, rather than merely parroting whatever received opinions happen to be fashionable within your set as if they were generally accepted truths. There seems to be a lot of this going on lately on OO.
Posted by Jon J, Monday, 28 November 2011 12:26:12 PM
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JonJ, a line from a classic Simon & Garfunkel song:

A man sees what he wants to see and disregards the rest.

Has anyone notice the tragic irony of the Christian true believer Runners postings on this forum? Invariably he aligns himself with the aggressive atheists and/or techno-barbarians who feature very strongly on this forum.

In my opinion the deleted posting by DavidL was one of the worst cases of in your face verbal abuse that has ever appeared on this forum.
Posted by Daffy Duck, Monday, 28 November 2011 1:52:29 PM
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I wonder if thousands of years ago there was some twit telling everyone to stop throwing rocks at that Tyrannosaurus Rex, because if they didn't, the earth would run out of rocks, & they would all be doomed?

John Ness, if I were to get some nice leather, & plat up a nice cat-o-nine tails for you, would you go off & self flagellate somewhere in private. I hate the sight of blood, real or symbolic, & could do without this cr4p.

I am not unhappy, I have no intention of being unhappy, & I have even less intention of letting someone like you make me so. I have lived much of my life using little energy, but that was by choice. Neither you, nor anyone else, will be allowed to dictate my energy use, without a very hard fight.

I'd suggest you trot off & have a swim. I hear that water is very good at dampening out vibrations. A few less bad vibrations, & even you too, may be able to be happy. Good luck.
Posted by Hasbeen, Monday, 28 November 2011 1:52:48 PM
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…The response to unhappiness outlined as the theory of the author of this article, fails to identify the causes of true unhappiness of the human state, that is, as an alignment to the “inner nature” of happiness. It fails by concentrating the alignment of human happiness to economic success.

…But any thinking individual knows only too well, this to be a fallacy. To prove the truth of John Nesses postulations, one should simply observe the well off for signs of this mystical “wealth created” happiness.

…No; true happiness is not wealth created. True happiness is a spiritual nurturing. It is an outwardly projecting state, from an inwardly established contentedness. Economics is not a “massaging paramount” of a contented soul.

…In these pages it would be most appropriate to quote the five precepts of basic morality, from the more humanist religion of Buddhism, (but Buddhism is not unique to this teaching among established religions):

1. To refrain from taking life (non-violence towards sentient life forms), or ahimsā
2. To refrain from taking that which is not given (not committing theft)
3. To refrain from sensual (including sexual) misconduct
4. To refrain from lying (speaking truth always)
5. To refrain from intoxicants which lead to loss of mindfulness (specifically, drugs and alcohol)
Posted by diver dan, Monday, 28 November 2011 2:26:32 PM
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I'm not "miserable" and religion is not my concern.

Reputedly among the religious, religion has the effect of inculcating guilt for those not conforming to the edict that they should feel miserable.

Paraphrasing the "Life of Brian's" religious crowd scene "Yes. We're all individuals"

I'm not :)

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Monday, 28 November 2011 2:51:50 PM
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Was this written by Kevin Rudd? Its about as understandable. I have no idea what the following neologisms are all about:

"The world has seen that the best way out of the circularity of such arguments is to dispense with them altogether and to replace them with a system that is capable of flexibility and incremental steps towards matching belief with reality."

"Alternatively, if the motive of the altruistic group benefit maximiser is accepted, then society heads towards stagnation and often xenophobia."

"To do this, the economic system must be based on and measured by the use of energy and the production of entropy as an empirical quantification of which system should be adopted."

Most of this article is absolute gobbledegook.
Posted by Atman, Monday, 28 November 2011 2:53:21 PM
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Very true, Diver Dan,

Just one comment - Buddhism is not a humanist religion. You mentioned it yourself in the description of Ahimsa.

----

Great observation, Atman!

----

Daffy Duck,

"In my opinion the deleted posting by DavidL was one of the worst cases of in your face verbal abuse that has ever appeared on this forum."

Yes it was, but under the provoking circumstances it reminds me of the question: "What's the ultimate insolence?", for which the answer is: "To poo on a stranger's doorstep, then ring the bell and ask for toilet paper. But there's yet one more level of insolence - for that home-owner to say 'just a minute' and return with sandpaper."
Posted by Yuyutsu, Monday, 28 November 2011 3:18:48 PM
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JN281111

John Ness,

Thanks for your two posts. The first one astounded me and I could not help feeling that you had wasted the product of an ingrained habit of thinking on an electronic publication where passions are many and contributors have diverse agenda bar that of helping humanity out of the throes of self harm.

Your first assertion: “Religion arose from inherent moral values not the other way around,”- must have taken a long time and the most apt circumstances to formulate.

What you say cannot possibly enter the minds of people shaped by institutions called Schools whose function is to uniformly clothe children just out of infancy and instruct them in the art of competing against each other.
” even though religious leaders have throughout the centuries claimed to be the guardians and interpreters of the moral code” escaped the observation of the readers of this publication.
“Which they have presumed was delivered exogenously from a superior being.” is outside ordinary learning.
Pierre-Joseph Proudhon 1809-1865 expressed these problems in theoretical terms; you made them seem immanent.
Posted by skeptic, Monday, 28 November 2011 5:19:50 PM
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My take on what John Ness says is that our economic system is based on use of finite resorces which produce effects detrimental to our environment.

I'm no greenie, but I agree with John Ness.

He is even more right when he says

'The way ahead is to move economics, in the macro sense, from this basis and put it on a physical one. The world is such a wonderful place because we have had over 3 billion years of the most primitive life forms taking energy from the sun and changing the atmosphere into a stable, oxygen rich one with very effective feedback mechanisms that keep the system stable.

Our economic system must do likewise,...'

I agree wholeheartedly.

'To do this, the economic system must be based on and measured by the use of energy and the production of entropy as an empirical quantification of which system should be adopted.'

John Ness is also exactly right when he says

'This is well within existing capabilities ...'

In a few words: Nuclear power generation.

Well done John.
Posted by imajulianutter, Monday, 28 November 2011 5:20:29 PM
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I'm miserable because of so much idiotic bureaucracy which simply doesn't give me a light at the end of the tunnel.
Posted by individual, Monday, 28 November 2011 6:53:37 PM
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I'm miserable because miserable people keep trying to tell me how I have to live my life so I can be miserable like them. The current government and all those before it are a classic example of miserable people telling happy people they need to be miserable like them to be happy!

I know, lets start an NGO with miserable government funding to ban happy people. Oh wait...
Posted by RawMustard, Monday, 28 November 2011 7:53:36 PM
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It was surely a mistake for the author to mix religion into a discourse on economic sustainability, let alone to infer that these largely separate concerns could somehow be cooperative co-valencies responsible for some supposed common emotional malaise infecting society at large. Rather a long bow, needing only the addition of global politics, the problems of drug and alcohol abuse, the prophecies of Nostradmus and a view from classical philosophy on the nature and origins of the cosmos, to become almost completely incomprehensible.

However, the state of the world economy, and its future operational integrity and reliability are of concern - as is its current inequitability, at least for the communitarians, the compassionate, and potentially the far-sighted. I always thought economics was supposed to be about value for money and value for effort - as a kind of general insurance policy against unforseen turmoil. Most recently however, global economics appears to have operated like some kind of pyramid or Ponzi scheme, with the operators benefiting enormously at the expense of everyone else.

Future sustainability should also be of concern, at least for those who recognise the insanity of testing nature to destruction, or near to it, either in pure and malignant self-interest, or in some mistaken belief in miraculous intervention, or otherwise in blindness or devil-may-care disregard.

As for religion, it should be fine as long as it promulgates an appropriate moral code, integrity and respect for universal human rights, and does not pit one group against another - and doesn't get too involved in politics or economics.
Posted by Saltpetre, Monday, 28 November 2011 8:41:00 PM
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I'm not sure that Yuyutsu has got it right in saying that the ultimate insolence is to poo on a stranger's doorstep, then ring the bell and ask for toilet paper. My Uncle Jack, who knew a lot about such things though very little about anything else, used to say that the ultimate insolence was to pee under a lady's front door, then ring the bell and ask her how far down the hall the pee had reached. That's unadulterated insolence!
Posted by GlenC, Monday, 28 November 2011 9:59:40 PM
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The author seems to me to describe what a significant number of
people are experiencing but not understanding what is behind their
economic situation.

He touches on the primary cause but has not explained how it has had
such significant effect. The economic malaise in Europe and the USA
has not had the direct and obvious connection to energy but it is there
under the surface.

The cost of energy has been removing any surplus available for what
some have called the "Happiness Factor".
It has now reached the point where it is starting to eat jobs that are
not absolutely essential but may soon start on the wider economy.

An example might be further increases in the unaffordability of
housing due to the drying up of funds for lending. Multiple family
houses may become more common.
It will certainly more energy efficient.

What has been happening in the US & Europe and the effects of energy
costs is well forecast in Richard Heinbergs book The End of Growth.
I recommend it as real insight read.
Posted by Bazz, Tuesday, 29 November 2011 10:22:57 AM
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