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The Forum > Article Comments > Germany sets aside $130 billion for renewable energy > Comments

Germany sets aside $130 billion for renewable energy : Comments

By John Daly, published 24/10/2011

This is an extraordinary (and expensive) commitment that may well have the collateral benefit of unlocking similar funding worldwide for renewable energy projects.

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The Second Law of Thermodynamics is EXPLICIT.
You cannot get a NET return of energy from any technology related to incident solar radiation.
That is, you cannot convert low density energy sources into baseload energy sources at net gain over input costs associated with manufacture, installation, transport and maintenance of the infrastructure.

The fact that it is renewable energy is negated by upgrade costs of solr/wind technology as they all (occupying vast areas) tend to rapidly become rapidly obsolete.

In essence what this says is that coal and oil will be continually needed to back up any solar, wind or wave renewable energy option. Its the cost of maintaining super large collection areas often in dangerous & remote locations. In fact its just a continuing use of fossil fuels. And because the extra "renewable" step is being added its also extremely inefficient.

Only >400 Deg C Geothermal heat can achieve these renewable goals from within basic Thermodynamic rules.

If the Germans invested their renewable stash in Geothermal it would pay off. Otherwise its just a fraud. German scientists were instrumental in discovery of thermodynamic laws. They have no excuse for failing to observe them unless they have some whopper gimmick.
Posted by KAEP, Monday, 24 October 2011 10:56:42 AM
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It can be done:

http://uk.ibtimes.com/articles/20111020/hour-solar-plant-nowreality.htm

20MW solar power plant has opened in Spain, operating 24/7.

So they're getting there.
Posted by TrashcanMan, Monday, 24 October 2011 11:00:08 AM
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I think it's great to see Germany making this commitment. My question is what form will the funding come in? Loans? Matched grants? More information needed here.

Agree with Curm that closed cycle gas turbines (up to 50% efficient and much better than open cycle at about 35%) offer one solution but only an interim one. To minimise emissions it should also involve combined heat and power , which can deliver up to 80% efficiency and should be practicable in the industrial areas and cities adjacent to residential and commercial areas where the waste heat can be used for heating and cooling.

Big question for gas in the long term is how to produce renewable gas; one pathway is biomass - syngas - methanation, but a country like Germany could only grow enough biomass to supply a few percent of its energy needs. So there will have to be breakthroughs in commercializing solar storage and solar hydrogen / methane production.

The biggest contributor will be energy efficiency; reducing energy use by up to 50% is possible. This has to be driven by higher energy prices and government programs such as the excellent Energy Efficency Opportunities program we have in Australia.
Posted by Roses1, Monday, 24 October 2011 12:31:05 PM
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Trash, Roses,

There is no doubt that it is possible to do, just that the cost of doing so is so prohibitive, that few governments are in the position to borrow heavily to replace existing generation with renewables. The $130bn is a relative drop in the bucket, and at the cost of the Spanish solar scheme would not replace one reactor, let alone a nuclear power plant.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 24 October 2011 12:55:27 PM
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Surely the most timid, self-defeating phrase in the English language is it can’t be done.
Sixty years ago is well within the memory of some of us. If in 1951 anyone had confidently predicted that within twenty years man would walk on the moon, they would have been told it can’t be done.
The Eagle landed eighteen years later.
Fast forward forty years to the 1991world of personal computers. IBM was upgrading their 286 to a 386. Many of us can remember marvelling at their power, and this was before the Pentium chip and the graphical user interface changed everything.
Had anyone predicted then that within twenty years a computer could be a palm-sized application platform that doubled as a telephone, they would have been told it can’t be done.
Apple launched the first iPhone sixteen years later.
Today it’s the turn of those predicting the emergence of renewable base-load power to be told it can’t be done.
A good response would be the title of the 80’s popular song, Another One Bites the Dust.
We will get there, to renewable base-load power, and it’s a timid bet to say it can’t be done.
Posted by halduell, Monday, 24 October 2011 1:26:05 PM
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Suckers!

There's one, er three, born every minute!

If there's money to be made in other people's stubborn ignorance then I'm gonna be very rich.

Yee Ha!

You puppies were warned.
Posted by KAEP, Monday, 24 October 2011 1:27:27 PM
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