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The Forum > Article Comments > Sorry Sarko, your position on Palestine is a mistake > Comments

Sorry Sarko, your position on Palestine is a mistake : Comments

By David Singer, published 18/10/2011

Does Nicolas Sarkozy really believe that Claims of historical or religious ties of Jews with Palestine are incompatible with the facts of history?

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David,

There's a whole bunch of stuff in Leviticus (and other books of the Old Testament) that Jesus didn't reject, but which he didn't espouse either. Just off the top of my head, the bits about keeping slaves and stoning people to death for minor infractions (like females attending Church whilst menstruating), as well as all the strange dietary laws.

Christians try to adhere to what Jesus is recorded as saying in the New Testament. Whilst he may not have actually rejected any Jewish beliefs, Christians tend to follow only the ones he specifically encouraged. And in the case of some 'Christians', a few that he didn't encourage - Jesus never said anything about homosexuality, and the condemnations thereof in the New Testament all come from Saul (St. Paul - not the messiah, just a very naughty boy).
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 9:47:29 PM
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Dear Acolyte Rizla,

Jesus was a fairly typical Jew. He criticised other Jews, didn't accept a lot of things and recommended changes. However, like most Jews he observed the important Jewish holidays. The last supper was a Passover seder. It was Paul who was responsible for starting a new religion in Jesus' name. Christians do not follow the religion of Jesus since he wasn't a Christian and never rejected his religion.

To the tune of the old jazz standard:

Six foot two,
Eyes of blue,
Jesus Christ,
He was a Jew.
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Big hooked nose,
There he goes.
Preaching so
That everyone knows
Has anybody seen my Lord?

Speared in the abdomen
By a Roman
Blood gushing out

Rose from the dead
So it is said
People believe without a doubt

Jesus died
Still a Jew
Still a Jew
So why aren't you?
Has anybody seen my Lord?
Posted by david f, Wednesday, 19 October 2011 10:39:14 PM
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David,

The Eucharist, David, The Eucharist. You have demonstrated you have scant understanding of our religious rituals and beliefs. It is arrant nonsense to attempt to equate them with the underlying evil and pagan rituals of Judeaism.

Why was He crucified at the behest of the Jewish priests by Puncis Pilate?

Do all typical Jews claim to be the Son of God?

Christ preached forgiveness and turning the other cheek which is the ultimate rejection of the basic tenet of all aspects of the revengeful Jewish Law ... an eye for an eye.

By the way in case you haven't noticed the Western Justice system is based in forgiveness, reconciliation and renewal and not revenge and atonement.

Hundreds of great western thinkers over many generations have re-inforced the teachings of Christ as part of the basis of Western justice and society. We have never looked to our musicians for deep thought and sensible philosophy. That you think we would suggests you hold us as contemptable idiots who hang onto or adopt shallow and/or unworkable ideas.

Yes you are right the Acolyte Rizla and the particular reference is Christs Sermon on the Mount.
Posted by imajulianutter, Thursday, 20 October 2011 4:56:01 PM
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Dear imajulianutter,

The Eucharist is a pagan ritual that has been adopted by Christianity.

From “PAGAN & CHRISTIAN CREEDS: THEIR ORIGIN AND MEANING” by Edward Carpenter:

Justin Martyr clearly had no doubt about the resemblance of the Mithraic to the Christian ceremony. A sacramental meal, as mentioned a few pages back, seems to have been held by the worshipers of Attis in commemoration of their god; and the 'mysteries' of the Pagan cults generally appear to have included rites--sometimes half-savage, sometimes more aesthetic--in which a dismembered animal was eaten, or bread and wine (the spirits of the Corn and the Vine) were consumed, as representing the body of the god whom his devotees desired to honor. … Festivals of this kind in celebration of the extinction and resurrection of the deity were held (by women and girls only) amid the mountains at night, every third year, about the time of the shortest day.

An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth was an advance over the customs of the day. When a member of one family injured a member of another family this could result in a blood feud which could continue for generations. The lex talionis eliminated revenge and blood feuds and turned punishment over to civil authorities. The recompense could
not exceed the original injury and was generally compensated for by a monetary payment.

http://biblicalresearch.gc.adventist.org/Biblequestions/eyeforeye.htm is a Christian site which will give you more details.

The Romans occupied Jerusalem and were in control. The new sect seeking converts among the Romans did not wish to blame the Roman authorities so put the blame on Jewish priests. The New Testament is a political document.

Roman archives show that Pontius Pilate was dismissed from his post for cruelty, but the New Testament account portrays him as a wishy-washy individual. Archives are generally accurate.

Most Jews do not claim to be the Son of God because most are sane.

I doubt you are a contemptible idiot. You seem ignorant and prejudiced. However, with an open mind and a willingness to learn both can be corrected.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 20 October 2011 7:42:07 PM
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Sadly for you David that you regard Christ as an insane Jew really does call into question whether you have respect for the religious beliefs of the people you are attempting to persuade to support your cause.

What ever were you thinking in showing such disrespect?

You believe the Eucharist a pagan ritual ... may I quote you in future?

Of course an eye for an eye etc was an advance for the times but don't you think to base a legal system on atonement and revenge (Even monetary) a tad archaic in light of the advances liberal western civilisations have developed in law and justice over the past 2000 odd years?

Of course the result of our system is we seek and generally produce peace and forgiveness whereas Judaeism produces conflict, anger and violence.

Now what was it that was said about citizens rights in Israel by that UN committee?
You know one of those committees in that organisation that has a regular 'theatre of the absurd'?
Posted by imajulianutter, Thursday, 20 October 2011 8:26:58 PM
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Dear imajulianutter,

I respect no religious beliefs. Religions get beliefs from other religions. Christianity is no exception.

Also from PAGAN & CHRISTIAN CREEDS: THEIR ORIGIN AND MEANING by Edward Carpenter:

"At the time of the life or recorded appearance of Jesus of Nazareth, and for some centuries before, the Mediterranean and neighboring world had been the scene of a vast number of pagan creeds and rituals. There were Temples without end dedicated to gods like Apollo or Dionysus among the Greeks, Hercules among the Romans, Mithra among the Persians, Adonis and Attis in Syria and Phrygia, Osiris and Isis and Horus in Egypt, Baal and Astarte among the Babylonians and Carthaginians, and so forth. Societies, large or small, united believers and the devout in the service or ceremonials connected with their respective deities, and in the creeds which they confessed concerning these deities. And an extraordinarily interesting fact, for us, is that notwithstanding great geographical distances and racial differences between the adherents of these various cults, as well as differences in the details of their services, the general outlines of their creeds and ceremonials were—if not identical--so markedly similar as we find them.

I cannot of course go at length into these different cults, but I may say roughly that of all or nearly all the deities above-mentioned it was said and believed that:

(1) They were born on or very near our Christmas Day.
(2) They were born of a Virgin-Mother.
(3) And in a Cave or Underground Chamber.
(4) They led a life of toil for Mankind.
(5) And were called by the names of Light-bringer, Healer, Mediator, Savior, Deliverer.
(6) They were however vanquished by the Powers of Darkness.
(7) And descended into Hell or the Underworld.
(8) They rose again from the dead, and became the pioneers of mankind to the Heavenly world.
(9) They founded Communions of Saints, and Churches into which disciples were received by Baptism.
(10) And they were commemorated by Eucharistic meals."

The inventors of Christianity incorporated pagan legends to appeal to a world where people were aware of those legends.
Posted by david f, Thursday, 20 October 2011 9:25:41 PM
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