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The Forum > Article Comments > Blow up the pokies > Comments

Blow up the pokies : Comments

By Daniel Bradley, published 29/9/2011

Even if some clubs folded as a result of this legislation, is that necessarily a bad thing?

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The one percenters.

I agree that one percent of all poker machine players have serious problems. As a national agenda item this issue has been blown way out of proportion by the spin doctors of Whine and Victim Nation - and I cite Xenophon as the prime spinner.

Heroin addiction? Nah, been there, done that. Gay marriage? No votes in it. Indigenous health? No votes either - and depressing too. Rural suicides and depression? Too gloomy. Juvenile crime? Too tabloid.

Every time you make a new law such as the ones Victim Nation want to enact with pokies, you slowly erode people's rights. What power the one percenters have.
Posted by Cheryl, Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:36:57 AM
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Cheryl, I don't play the pokies myself, however I do know some who do and they enjoy it.

The bit I can't grasp is why they don't simply reduce the amount one can loose in a machine. This way you don't effect those without problems and you stop those with a problem from wasting thier money on these machines.

Now of cause they may find some other way of wasting thieri money, but that's life. You can't legislate against stupidity.

Another sensitive issue is to stop paying welfare as cash, but governments won't do this as they rely on the taxes they get from gambling, tabbacco and grog.

It's a catch 22 situation, especially considering how much of our taxes have been wasted both state and federally.

Unfortunately, our system now relies on the likes of the pokies.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:55:47 AM
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It would not matter if all poker machine clubs went broke .The persons who now use them can obtain drinks and meals in restaurants , fast food venues , pubs or taverns . They can socialise in other places , which do not have poker machines .

If patrons genuinely see some benefit in club membership that cannot be obtained elsewhere , they should be prepared to pay increased membership fees to offset the loss of revenue from the poker machines . Those who object that poor people cannot afford to pay increased membership fees should admit that such people are the very people who are made even more impoverished by the machines .

It has been demonstrated that the percentage of revenue which clubs contribute to community causes is minimal , and it is all derived from gamblers , not created by the clubs .

Any income tax exemptions which clubs now have should be removed , to the extent that such income is derived from poker machine revenue . No further poker machine licences should be issued , regardless of how worthy the applicants for such licences may be .

Governments should gradually acquire , compulsorily if necessary , a percentage of poker machine licences from the clubs until they have all been acquired , the compensation for such acquisition being derived from the removal of tax exemptions from poker machine clubs .
Posted by jaylex, Thursday, 29 September 2011 8:48:29 AM
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...Carping for gambling addicts is the same carping as for drug addicts and alcoholics. These are a group in our community who can only be assisted by themselves.

...Just as clubs and pubs (and bottle shops), plunder alcoholics for their "Booty", and drug dealers plunder the addict for their "Booty", gamblers present themselves for plunder to casinos and the myriad of gambling venues available.

...Personal responsibility dictates the spouses and their families have a personal responsibility to save themselves from such people, as the addict must in the end, bend to personal responsibility to save themselves if they so desire.

...Addicts build their own environment to suit a personal need; it becomes their own choice to remain in that environment or to advance out of it. All the Wilkies, clubs and law changes will not alter the fact!
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 29 September 2011 9:17:34 AM
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Diver Dan:

Making an argument that we shouldn't attempt to help problem gamblers and the vulnerable because they will look for alternate ways of feeding their addiction is the easy way out.

On that basis we should shut down the injecting room in Kings Cross, we should stop trying to protect our borders, we should stop imprisoning people who steal when on drugs.

Our society must have the moral fortitude to look after its people, one family saved is worth this legislative change.,That is not intended to abdicate anybody from personal responsibility, but rather to reinforce our capacity to care for each other in times of need.

daniel: www.spinspun.com.au
Posted by daniel: spinspun, Thursday, 29 September 2011 10:15:20 AM
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Dan, I'm not having a go at people who play pokies and I'm very sad that there are people out there who are peeing their pensions and salaries up against a wall of pokie machines.

But ask yourself, are you really right to suggest that "one family saved is worth this legislative change"? Me thinks not. Not by a long shot.

rehctub's idea of reducing the amount one can lose is a good one.
Posted by Cheryl, Thursday, 29 September 2011 11:00:00 AM
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Cheryl, this was not my idear, it is what has been suggested as part of the reform package.

The bit I don't get, is why not just make this change an be done with it.

At least then the 99% who are not the problem can go about thier business with being hassled by big brother.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 29 September 2011 11:11:12 AM
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...No..I maintain my line of argument which puts all responsibility for personal outcomes, good and bad, firmly on the shoulders of the affected.

...In our communities we offer alternatives to addicts to help save themselves from their OWN self-destructive choices; injecting rooms are but one. AA is another, Gamblers anonymous but another, charities to feed the poor.

...I'll give an analogy from an environment of which I am familiar: The most effective method to unpick an anchor from the sea bed is to pull from the front of the anchor; but most anchors are simply not designed that way. Gambling venues likewise are not designed to deal with problem addicts, and I believe neither should they be. There is a design factor for legitimate profit to such venues attracting to a normal person exhibiting normal self control.

...We cannot save the unsavable, we may only assist them by the above means when they call for help. Very honorable it is for posters here to feel their pain, but the fact prevails, help is in their own hands ultimately.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:01:16 PM
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Not only are pokies a scourge on the community, but so are a lot of the clubs that do so well out of them. These clubs have come to dominate the social landscape with their great Australian ugliness - turgid, billious interiors; cold perspex and chrome; floor to ceiling TV screens playing non-stop matches and action replays; loud, tasteless variety acts; and boring meals followed by bad coffee.

Another factor to consider are the two main areas of club activity, which are: 1) sport and 2) the RSL. In other words, the billions made by clubs every year are mostly poured into the coffers of organisations that are there to promote sport and the military.

What if the Arts and Science organisations all decided to put pokies in their art galleries, museums and science labs? What if schools and hospitals put them in their assembly halls and waiting rooms? There would probably be a lot more money available for these activities to influence Australian life and culture in the same way that sport and the military have.

I'm being deliberately absurd to make a point, but it's not that far from the truth. Why should sport and the military be given such an unfair advantage in influencing the culture, on the back of their inextricable links to gambling?
Posted by Killarney, Thursday, 29 September 2011 12:31:39 PM
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I rate pokies above dog and cock fighting, but way below midget throwing on the civilisation scale. To value something which contributes nothing yet takes away so much is clearly the product of a degenerate mindset.

Exploiting vulnerabilities should have no legality. What if the only condition for qualifying for some government largess was to fill out an application which could only be accessed by being born between the first and fifteenth of January? Would it fair to give advantage to a small proportion of the population on such a basis? Why them is it fair to exploit a similar proportion of the population with a genetic predisposition to gambling/drug addiction?
Posted by Fester, Thursday, 29 September 2011 1:16:08 PM
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DD I here what you say, but unreality, it's the kids who ultimately miss out because the addict has gambled away the money earmarked for living expenses.

Other than that, I have to agree with you.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 29 September 2011 6:53:33 PM
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Fester:

Your question; why are addicts exploited legally at pokies can be answered; they are not! Poker-machines are no more or less exploitave than is horse racing: Gambling is simply a form of entertainment. It is not everybodies idea of fun certainly, but playing of poker machines for fun is acceptable by community standards and regarded as generally innocuous.

For those in society with addictions, there is ample help in conventional areas such as psychological counseling clinics and specialist areas in the community. Wilkies proposal to control poker machines is built on compassion but not sense.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:08:07 PM
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Yes, Daniel, it is a bad thing if some clubs fold as a result of the proposed legislation. You see, clubs employ a lot of people. If the clubs go, so do the jobs and the income from said jobs. It's sad when Dad's pokie addiction puts a family in the poorhouse. Is it not equally sad when Dad being fired has the same effect? Or should we only care about people who choose to make themselves poor through gambling, and not those who have poorness thrust upon them through unemployment?

I work in a club restaurant. I have nothing to do with the gaming section, and I don't prey upon people's vulnerabilities. So why, Daniel, do you think it is reasonable that I be financially punished as a result of other people's gambling choices (which is what will happen if this legislation puts my employer out of business)? How is that fair or right?
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Thursday, 29 September 2011 7:18:09 PM
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I cannot stand pokies.They are anti-social and moronic.Are we to assume addictive personalies will not find another outlet for their obsessive compulsive disorders?

Govt regulation solves nothing.Get Govt out of our lives then we will have less disorders.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 29 September 2011 10:53:50 PM
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Taking Diver San seriously is a risk but let's assume he seriously believes what he says. "Poker machines are no more exploitative than horse racing." Wrong. People who wager on horses do so in normal climatic conditions and races are discrete, not continuous events, creating thinking time between temptations for gamblers to evaluate what they are doing. Poker machines entrap addicts in artificial climates which mess with their sensual perceptions and provide no breaks during which they might have time to reflect on the stupidity of what they are doing.

Playing poker machines is regarded as "generally innocuous"? Get real. It might be for some but for the hooked it is about as innocuous as eschewing condoms during a philandering tour through AIDS infected parts of Africa.

His observation that "there is ample help in conventional areas such as psychological counselling clinics and specialist areas in the community" is chilling. It implies that he thinks it OK to exploit the vulnerable if he can identify provisions to ameliorate the damage he inflicst on them. And it suggests that his awareness of the damage he is prepared to inflict to make himself (or his club) a dollar extends only to the first hand victim, and not to the victim's family, who even by his criteria, can hardly be judged to have copped what they deserve for being flawed people.
Posted by GlenC, Thursday, 29 September 2011 11:06:38 PM
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Horse racing is very different to pokies, generally because the outcome can be influenced by ones abillity to follow form.

Lotto is another really bad form of gambling that seems to fly under the radar.

As a retailer, I see a major change in shoppers spending habits when there is a super draw.

Many people choose to gamble ratherbthan feed thier families or meet their commitments.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 30 September 2011 6:11:10 AM
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Acolyte Rizia,

Clearly my desire is not for people like you to lose your jobs, however your component of the business (the restaurant area) is propped up by the pokies component. I would far prefer the restaurant was able to survive on its own merits. I accept however that in some cases that won't be the case due to the pokies revenue being so significant.

I stand by my article and my position.

If we accepted yours, then we accept that evil, amoral businesses should be allowed to flourish if they provide employment.

Daniel: spinspun.com.au
Posted by daniel: spinspun, Friday, 30 September 2011 8:23:14 AM
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Daniel,

Clearly your desire is for people like me to lose our jobs, otherwise you'd not be supporting this legislation.

As for your point about allowing evil, amoral businesses to flourish: we already do. You see, I'm a former addict myself. Not to pokies (a game for the innumerate), but to alcohol. Which is actually a lot more addictive than poker machines, due to the chemical rather than behavioural nature of the addiction. And coincidentally sold in the same places that you'll find pokies, plus bottleshops to boot. As a former drunkard, it amuses me no end to see your mob wailing 'Oh, please, won't somebody think of the pokie addicts', whilst ignoring the pissheads slumped at the bars of the very clubs you want to shut down. So why the inconsistency? Why don't you want to stop grog merchants plying their addictive wares and profiting off human misery? Is it because you just don't care about alcoholics, in the same way you don't care about hospitality workers? Or is it because you accept that just because some of us can't handle our piss it doesn't follow that other people's livelihoods should suffer? Do you think the alcoholic is responsible for his condition, or the barman? I would say that it's the alcoholic, every time (and I'd add that it's his responsibility to sort it out - none of this 'higher power' crap). And I would stand opposed to anybody who argued that the barman should be punished for my stupid decisions.

If you were to be consistent, any argument you made which applied to pokies would also apply to alcohol (only more so, because alcohol is more addictive and worse for the addict's health). I'm pretty sure they don't. Which suggests it actually is okay to let 'evil, amoral businesses' flourish, provided that they're sort of 'evil, amoral businesses' you approve of.
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Friday, 30 September 2011 9:30:06 AM
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The Acolyte Rizla,

You miss the point...clearly no one thinks alcoholism is acceptable nor should not be discouraged. The alcoholic may have significant impacts on their immediate family via premature death, abuse and violence to partner and/or children and may also waste considerable amounts of money. Alternatively they may fall asleep on the lounge and snore loudly thereby interrupting the TV.

What they can't do is spend their entire paycheck in 30 minutes of "quality time"; to consume that amount of alcohol is a "once in a lifetime" event.

Both the alcoholic and the compulsive gambler need assistance and this legislation; in the same way that "responsible service of alcohol" is the norm in licensed premises (you didn't lose your job when that was introduced) goes some way to mitigating the worst effects.

You will NOT lose your job if this group of gamblers is slowed down in their spend rate as it is only 40% of the largest clubs revenue from poker machines and if it is reduced by 10% then will have little impact on the clubs' overall profitability.
Posted by Peter King, Friday, 30 September 2011 10:19:40 AM
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Peter,

This legislation won't do a damn thing, in exactly the same way that the responsible service of alcohol legislation did sod all to prevent my alcoholism. We're talking about addicts here, and believe me, they will find ways to feed their addictions no matter what legislative obstacles you put in their way. Neither outright prohibition (in the case of illegal drugs) nor harm minimisation laws (in the case of alcohol, tobacco and pokies) will save an addict from themselves. In the end, the addict is the only person who can do that. Doctors, counsellors etc. can help a lot, but the law does sweet F.A.

So I'm not all that worried that I'll lose my job - legislation or no legislation, poker machine addicts will still feed their incomes to poker machines. But the author's disgusting suggestion that it would somehow be a good thing (or at least not a bad thing) if poker machine venues were to close, putting a lot of people out of work, was such an offensive assertion that it could not go unchallenged.
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Friday, 30 September 2011 10:45:39 AM
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"TAR",

I am sure no one wants you to lose your job nor see clubs shut down...perhaps it was an ambit claim by the author :)

However, as i understand it the pokie addict is a little different to other compulsive gamblers in that they are addicted to the process...press the buttons, watch the lights, pray for the win, chase the losses.

I think the theory is that you break this cycle and the gambler will have 'time out" to contemplate their losses. I don't know too many addicts of any persuasion but I do remember friends of my parents who lost large amounts of money on pokies and yet had no interest in horses, dogs, trots or even Lotto as alternate ways to throw away money. On that basis I think it would be worth trying.
Posted by Peter King, Friday, 30 September 2011 11:14:02 AM
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Acolyte, your argument has holes.

Pokies enable a user, addict or not, to loose up to $1200 in just one hour.

No alcohol addiction can account for that expenditure, hour after hour, day after day.

You simply can not liken one to the other.

As usual, our pollies are incapable of simply fixing the problem, without effecting th masses

This is why reducing the amount any machine can accept in any one hour will be a much simpler way to address the 1%'s and leave the masses to go about thier own business, free from interference from big brother.

I guess it's just a little to easy, so pollies can't help but mess with logic.
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 30 September 2011 2:44:40 PM
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Glen C:

...I have a "masters" in human nature: Addicts are a bunch of losers with no hope, or put another way, addicts are no-hopers! Wilkies of this world will not save one no-hoper from themselves. If a transformation is to happen in the life of an addict, it will begin from within, not without! Clubs should be left to do what they do best; look after bowlers, golfers and footballers et al..
Posted by diver dan, Friday, 30 September 2011 8:49:32 PM
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<Your question; why are addicts exploited legally at pokies can be answered; they are not! >

I beg to differ, Comical Ali. Ever heard of Slot Hypnosis?

http://casinogambling.about.com/od/slots/a/slothypnosis.htm

I thought that hypnosis was a medical therapy or the basis of an entertaining stage act, yet apparently clubs and casinos legally use hypnosis to relieve patrons of their money. But hey, it is okay because it is all in the name of fun, and only a few crackpots object to it.

In past times, hypnosis was regarded as a form of witchcraft. While I wouldn't like to see an exploitative use hypnosis result in people being burned at the stake, I dont think that it should have a legal standing in the gaming industry.
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 1 October 2011 12:03:38 AM
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Diver Dan,

Addicts are not without hope. They can and do recover. But you're right that the transformation has to begin from within, which is why this law (or any other) won't achieve anything - you can't legislate for folk's thoughts, only their actions.

Fester,

You are aware that some random bloke on the interweb asserting that poker machines are hypnotic doesn't actually make it true, right? People claim all sorts of things on the interweb - you can't believe everything you read. Do you actually have any evidence that poker machines are hypnotic, or just more hearsay and conjecture?
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Saturday, 1 October 2011 7:45:11 AM
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You might find this link relating gambling addiction to brain chemistry interesting:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/19/your_brain_on_gambling/

or this:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2861872/

It wouldn't be hard to determine changes in brain activity induced by pokie playing from an eeg, though I haven't found a published study yet. Might be a fun segment for aca. I also found this article by a machine designer outlining some of the psychology of slot machine design:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/09/magazine/09SLOTS.html?pagewanted=all
Posted by Fester, Saturday, 1 October 2011 10:58:16 PM
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Well from all the comments so far, I would suggest the best options would be to limit the amount any one machine can accept in an hour and, introduce a plain packaging style of machine.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 2 October 2011 6:20:11 AM
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Well, from what I know of pokies they are nothing more than a legalised scam. So whatever good comes of the revenue they raise, you cannot escape this fact.

It is sad to see the victims denigrated in light of the way they are exploited. From the NYT link I gave:

"When I asked one I.G.T. artist if he ever plays, he acted as if I had insulted him. ''Slots are for losers,'' he spat, and then, coming to his senses, begged me to consider that an off-the-record comment."

I see people profiting from pokies as being better than drug dealers, but not by much.
Posted by Fester, Sunday, 2 October 2011 10:00:46 PM
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rehctub,

The best option would be to replace poker machines with roulette tables. It's still a mug punters game, requiring no more skill or knowledge than a poker machine, but it's not as addictive and has better odds. It also has social aspect that is absent from poker machine lounges. Or maybe we could bring back two-up.

Fester,

Poker machines are not a scam. The word scam implies that poker machines gather their revenue through dishonest means - that they defraud the punters through trickery and deception. This is clearly nonsense - EVERYBODY* knows that poker machines are weighted heavily in favour of the house, and that there is a better than even chance that they will never again see said money again. Poker machines may or may not be an unethical means of obtaining revenue, but they are most definitely not a scam.

I agree that drug dealers are worse than pokie barons. Which is why I find it perplexing that so many people rail so vehemently against poker machines in licensed venues, whilst completely ignoring the roaring trade in a highly dangerous & addictive drug (ethanol) that takes place in the bars of such venues. Ahh, the hypocrisy.

* Everybody who hasn't been living under a rock for the past decade, that is.
Posted by The Acolyte Rizla, Monday, 3 October 2011 8:25:49 AM
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Poker machines are a scam, simply because they deceive people into believing that they will win. Yes, you or I might realise what they are about, but there is no shortage of people who play them in the belief that they will win. And it is a fact that the machines are designed to reinforce this misconception with many features, most notably large jackpots and near misses. The near miss is a psychological ploy known to keep pathological gamblers playing. The near miss ploy is widely regarded as a scam in its own right.

http://www.richardmarcusbooks.com/labels/slot%20cheating.htm
Posted by Fester, Monday, 3 October 2011 6:52:13 PM
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