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The Forum > Article Comments > Is global Islamophobia to blame for the Oslo massacres? > Comments

Is global Islamophobia to blame for the Oslo massacres? : Comments

By George Morgan, published 8/8/2011

Fascists ironically are using the Internet to lock arms against globalisation and defending the impotent state from its imagined invaders.

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So people who object to the Islamic religion are 'xenophobes'? Check out this site:

http://religiousatrocities.wordpress.com/category/religious-beliefs/islamicism/

and you will find 344 examples of religiously-motivated intolerance and stupidity that made the national or international news over the past three years: that's more than two a week. Most of them involve murder; many of them involve multiple murders; and all of them involved Islam in some way.

Whether the Islamic religion is inherently more intolerant than others is not the point; the point is that it is generally more strongly held than Christianity, and the more strongly held a religion is, the more likely it is to trigger acts of stupidity and violence.

Islam will inevitably retreat, as Christianity did, once its believers become more affluent and better-educated. But there will be an awful lot of blood shed on both sides during the process. As Sam Harris has pointed out, the people who suffer most from Muslim violence are other Muslims. For THEIR sake, if not for the sake of non-Muslim citizens, nations with large Muslim populations must take steps to reduce extremism and remove the privileged position of religion and religious leaders.

If the Muslim (or Christian) God exists, he certainly doesn't need any support from the taxpayer. And if he DOESN'T exist...
Posted by Jon J, Monday, 8 August 2011 7:42:15 AM
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When the Cold War ended, and all those reds came out from under our beds, some demon was needed to rally the troops. And to justify the looting of our various Western treasuries by the armament industry, both manufacturers and merchants.
Enter Islam. Not only did they sit astride most of the world's then known reserves of oil, but everyone knew, and had known forever, that they were barbarians. The Greeks had fought them. The Romans had fought them. Medieval Europe had fought them.
Israel was fighting them still.
They dressed in drag and even allowed a man to take four (4) wives!
How perfect they were for intellectually challenged leaders such as Bush the Younger, his war cabinet and sycophant Blair.
So now the truly deranged answer what they hear as a call to arms, and haven't we painted ourselves into a tight and vicious little corner!
Posted by halduell, Monday, 8 August 2011 8:33:28 AM
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In dark corners around the world there are lunatics looking for excuses to kill people. It could be Islamophobia, anti semitism, anti capitalism, racism etc.

Whatever the supposed reason, there is no logic, and this is just a flimsy excuse to commit mass murder. Altering society might change the excuse, but not the act.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 8 August 2011 9:38:18 AM
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The authors claims of a general Islamophobia in the West is an attack by him on the very Western society which Muslims, in their droves, seek to join.

He misses two important points. One is that the intolerance of Muslims to other religions and Western values, rather than the intolerance of the West, is often a major cause of conflict. The second is the Breivik shot his fellow white Western Norwegians. There was no attack on Muslims.

Again we have an author using the Norway massacre to push their own ideological barrow. I've lost count of how many people are drawing support for their own causes and ideologies out of this incident.

The author's article is primarily anti-Western rather than pro-Muslim. There is not one statement about the positive advantages of Islamic involvement in the West. He seems unaware that Left wing academia is a luxury of western capitalism, and should that lose its dominance, his job would be one of the first to go.
Posted by Atman, Monday, 8 August 2011 10:37:51 AM
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Islam has approximately 1.4 billion followers around the world. Like all monotheist religions it has many variations beyond the simple Sunni, Shiite, Alawite and Druze all with their unique dogma. Furthermore the practice if Islam differs within each sub-section e.g the Sunni Muslim religion as practiced in Saudi Arabia is of the Wahhabi branch, highly orthodox and conservative it is the most intolerant of Islamic branches.

For any one to be culturally racist of Islam, no matter what hypocritical words are attached to the discrimination, should cause the predominately Christian West a deep sense of shame. Islam is only about 1,400 years old and needs time to assimilate new concepts and ideas on freedom, democracy and capitalism for surely the systems in place in the West are far from perfect. Would the USA and Britain march their armies against Iraq and destroy the country if it were not for that country's oil?

As for Islam being a fundamentally violent and therefore a fearful religion I would like to know how many Muslims have died in the last decade at the hands of the West and how many in the West have died as a result of Muslim attacks? I think you will find the numbers hugely disproportionate as so many Iraqi civilians have died by the hand of imperialistic powers.
Posted by Ulis, Monday, 8 August 2011 10:50:59 AM
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"Is global Islamophobia to blame for the Oslo massacres?"

No, just personal Islamophobia, for the guy who did it .. some people deal with things, one, or two, in a billion don't.

That doesn't automatically mean there is some great global conspiracy.

Do we talk about global hatred of the West whenever there is an incident of hatred against the West? Do we question whether there is some great conspiracy about?

Of course not ..
Posted by Amicus, Monday, 8 August 2011 11:09:22 AM
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... Such people retain attachments to cultural practices, moral codes and social networks that are incompatible with citizenship in the receiving country.

That just about says it all. Islamic values are not those of the West. Muslims do not accept equality, human rights, freedom of speech, religion, or separation of religion and state. Yes, there are some good Muslims, but in numbers they bring hate and violence with them, causing sorrow, turmoil and death. It is just a matter of time.

Ulis. Take a look at Islamic states. Check out the human rights situation in the 50+ IOC Islamic States - and then tell me it is just a coincidence. Tell me that Islam has nothing to do with the sad state of those countries or the lack of freedoms and human rights.

Or simply tell me why you think the West can trust or live in peace with a group of people that says "Praise be upon him" after the name of a man that attacked, plundered, killed, tortured, enslaved men women and children, and raped captives. These things are easily found in Islam's own traditions (hadith) even if Muslims usually ignore them. When confronted about them, Muslims will not condemn Mohammad for his evil deeds. Oh yes, according to the Quran, Mohammad is a great moral example for Muslims. Figure out if you can what this means.

No, we do not shoot people, Muslims or infidels. That is wrong. The Norway massacre was the work of a evil man (not insane). Let us not make excuses for evil, no matter what form it takes or who does it.

The article is just another kumbayah song that ignores reality. Even a short look at history shows that one evil does not justify another or that if group A fights evil group B, that does not mean group A is any better that B. Standing up for our freedoms and human rights against a barbaric 7th century cult or even a repressive 21st century government is an act of courage, not a cute, meaningless phobia.
Posted by kactuz, Monday, 8 August 2011 11:26:47 AM
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Culturally Racist, LOL, that's a new one.
The Islamophobia we're confronted with comes from Israel, it's promoted by Zionists (mostly of the Christian variety but certainly by Jews as well) all over the Western world, when we talk about "right wingers" we're talking about pro Israeli groups.
From the U.S Tea Party movement, to the EDL, to the Australian Protectionists, Fred Nile and Anders Breivik....all fanatical Zionists.

White people just accept "no go zones" as part of life,we've always had them even when this was a 98% White country and we don't need a bunch of Zionists to point them out for us. These inner city Lefties who rave about their "diverse" living spaces came along after Fitzroy and Richmond had been "pacified", the Tres Chic Rob Roy hotel for example was a blood house 25 years ago, you didn't go down Brunswick St after dark unless there were four of five in your group...Gertrude St, forget it, it was dangerous enough down there during the day.

Anyone who lives among large numbers of Muslims knows from experience to avoid them when at all possible, it's just common sense.
Example, I was at a party on Saturday night and a young White couple were on their way by public transport, they rang the host to see if the local station was safe, if there were any "Lebbos" or "Islanders" who congregated there.
Again,it's simple common sense, it's not worth being bashed half to death for the sake of a $20 cab fare.
There are no organised "White Islamophobia",or "Racist" political movements, nor "White supremacist" gangs. Just a lot of White people with realistic and sensible attitudes toward non whites which they pass on in the form of safety tips....eg, avoid Broadmeadows train station, don't go into the McKay gardens after dark, don't cut through the Flemington housing estates on foot.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 August 2011 11:34:39 AM
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halduell:

"Enter Islam. Not only did they sit astride most of the world's then known reserves of oil, but everyone knew, and had known forever, that they were barbarians. The Greeks had fought them. The Romans had fought them."

The Barbarians were white skin Europeans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decline_of_the_Roman_Empire
Posted by Philip Tang, Monday, 8 August 2011 11:53:55 AM
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Philip Tang
Europeans were surely barbarians, and at no time more so than during the Crusades. Read Steven Runciman's three volume history of the Crusades to dispel any lingering doubt on that score.
And the most recent invasion of European barbarians into the Middle East? That would be a dead heat between the Ashkenazi Zionists' state of Israel (Europe's guilty conscience), and the Bush/Blair War on (of) Terror.
Posted by halduell, Monday, 8 August 2011 2:33:06 PM
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Halduell.
Zionism has been sold out by it's Anglo Elite sponsors,watch what happens over the next few years.
The Norway massacre is in part a reaction to this betrayal.
As I keep saying, there is no "Racist Right", it doesn't exist, there are only degrees of liberalism reacting in different ways to Israel.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 August 2011 3:15:07 PM
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"Fascists ironically are using the Internet to lock arms against globalisation and defending the impotent state from its imagined invaders."

What is it with Humanities types and leftists in general who love to smear their enemies as "fascists" while at the same time trying to impose their view of the world on others. While Conservatives make no bones about wanting others to conform to their view, leftist and Humanities types love pushing their logic through the back door. Think as I do or you're a "fascist".

Being critical of Islam may be fascist in a sense, but I deserve the right to disagree with a religion that is based on a 2,000 year old metaphysics and a 1,400 year old morality. As a Humanities lecturer, Mr. Moragn should be well aware of the outmoded metaphysics Islam is based upon, yet we must be tolerant of it! To be tolerant of it is to castrate the intellect and ignore the plethora of critiques that have refuted its ontological base. Max Stirner, Friedrich Nietzsche, and Sigmund Freud, to name a few, have thoroughly refuted the metaphysics on which it rests. Predicated on the now refuted mind/body split, the replacement of the father figure by a higher, transcendental authority, a sheet anchor for the world weary, and the imagined superiority as a servant of the divine.

As for its morality, divine command law is completely contrary to the principles of liberal democracy. While liberal theory wants us to respect the rights of the individual, Islam does not ground its laws in the rights of the individual. It acts according to a "higher" law, and not one's own or the state's. One has to wonder who the real "fascist" is here.
Posted by Aristocrat, Monday, 8 August 2011 3:27:04 PM
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but anti-Islamic vigilantes simply attack Muslims and mosques.

Yet Breivik attacked not one Islamic target; he attacked 'liberal' and 'left wing' targets- twice. What does that tell you?

Well let me tell you instead; it suggests that Breviek had been caught up in a gigantic 'left/right divide' where the evil (Norwegian) Labor Party is in fact a great force of marxist fanatics trying to destroy his country and preferred (conservative) way of life.

You know- the same kind of blinkered mindset you see a lot of on these forums- from both 'sides'.

"Islamophobia" would barely factor into the greater part of Breveik's anxieties- and these kinds of anxieties are pedaled to gullible audiences worldwide to believe that the stakes of two political parties with similar policies except a few regarding the Middle East, are as high as preventing the next Nazi uprising.
Posted by King Hazza, Monday, 8 August 2011 5:58:17 PM
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It's worth remembering that Breivik, on the one hand, and al Qaida, on the other, are both prepared to use the most evil methods to exterminate innocent people, and that each of them extend their hatred towards Marxists, liberals and democrats.

So fundamentalists on both sides, in a sense, go beyond their 'briefs' to attack what they both see as the middle ground, the portion of humanity beyond their nominal target groups, to what they both perceive as threats to their vile ideologies: human equality, and everybody's rights to freedom and democracy.

In this sense, they are not all that different from each other - both ultimately supporting totalitarian philosophies, using terror as their major weapon, and thereby excluding themselves from common humanity.
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 8 August 2011 6:20:21 PM
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Not Islamophobia, it's islamic fanaticism that's at the core of the situation.
Posted by individual, Monday, 8 August 2011 6:42:39 PM
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"Facists locking arms against Globalisation." Is this double speak? The Globalists are the ones wanting the wars of imperialism.They want the Islamic oil/gas.My view is that the globalialists are the facists.

People like Anders Breivik are easily manipulated into a particular agenda.He is sounding like a false flag fruit loop.
Posted by Arjay, Monday, 8 August 2011 7:35:17 PM
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Sigh

Here we go again.

>>Global Islamophobia differs from older forms of racism…>>

At this point I stopped reading.

Mr. Morgan,

Expressions of contempt or scorn for a belief system or ideology is NOT, repeat, NOT, racism. The fact that a belief system is labelled a “religion” should not exempt it from critique, analysis, attack, contempt, satire and scorn in a SECULAR democracy.

Yes, some people attack Islam to disguise their racism.

And some people attack Israel to disguise their hatred for Jews.

But does that mean either Islam or Israel should be exempt from (verbal) attack?

Mr. Morgan, these are not intended as rhetorical questions. I hope you will answer.

Are anti-Catholic views also a “form of racism?”

If not, why not?
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 8 August 2011 7:40:20 PM
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I have emailed Dr. Morgan the text of my post above.

Let's see if we get a reply.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Monday, 8 August 2011 7:51:53 PM
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Arjay,

Fascism and totalitarianism are very broad churches, and like churches in the past, sometimes they collaborate, sometimes they feud and even go to war against each other. The Iran/Iraq war comes to mind. But they still share common anti-humanist, anti-democratic and fundamentally anti-people core beliefs.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Monday, 8 August 2011 8:28:23 PM
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I'm with Loudmouth on this one.

A christian conservative terrorist murdering his fellow 'christians' is ultimately no different than an islamic conservative terrorist murdering his fellow 'islamists'.

Religious conservative fundamentalists by nature are basically misanthropic.
Posted by Neutral, Monday, 8 August 2011 9:30:34 PM
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Joe.
Yeah, Fascists were "anti people" (rolleyes), mate they weren't even "Racists" by your definition.
Franco would have been lost without his Army of Africa,the Italians made extensive use of their African troops and the Third Reich forces were more multicultural than any of today's armies, they didn't have to have affirmative action programs because "people of colour" were volunteering. This "Fascism = Racism" nonsense is based on lies.
The "Jesse Owens outraged Hitler" story is a lie, read Owen's recollections of his treatment at the '38 games, the Nazis had reason to propagandise their "superiority", they thrashed the pants off everyone else and won more medals than the next five countries combined.
Hitler's trusted SA bodyguard and driver Emil Maurice was half Jewish, everyone including Hitler knew this. Hitler and Emil fell out over his affair with Geli Raubal but they eventually reconciled and Emil became chairman of one of the Reichs craft guilds.
There were Jews and "Half Jews" working for the Reich and serving in the Armed forces, nobody disputes this but then again nobody talks about it either, censorship by omission, same difference.
There are surviving Third Reich Jewish ration cards dated 1945 and it's now accepted that about a third of German Jews remained more or less free in Germany for the duration of the war, again, not talked about but not denied either..just, forgotten.
I could go on all night with examples.

This "Fascism" nonsense has to stop, Israelis are not Fascists, Islamists are not Fascists,Zionist Right Wingers and White Nationalists are not Fascists.
The charge of "Neo Fascism" has never been proven, unlike the charge of "Neo Marxism" which is proven in every case, usually because the accused goes around saying "I'm a Marxist".
White Nationalists wouldn't be caught dead marching under a Swastika...ever been to a Marxist demo and seen all the Red flags, the Che T-shirts and hammer & sickle badges?
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Monday, 8 August 2011 9:37:01 PM
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The following website may provide some answers
to the question - "Is global Islamophobia to blame
for the Oslo massacres?":

http://newmatilda.com/2011/07/25/ends-political-incorrectness
Posted by Lexi, Monday, 8 August 2011 11:16:16 PM
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I can believe educated people acting so, that normal people cant describe. Its religion! the biggest parasitic organism on the planet. Why do you good people play into its hands! Pat Condell spells out what we wont when you are invited to our shores......don't like it.....go back to our own lands that's so fine! Dont think we don't see you extremists, we do, and your starting what you escaped from.....religion is man made! stop being so caveman! your making fools of yourselves.

http://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CCYQtwIwAQ&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DJW6PRABq4HM&rct=j&q=pat%20condell%20youtube&ei=GOE_TuOhM8KHrAe-k6T5Dw&usg=AFQjCNEJf0GN1oIkAF-daLdTXNKy5ln4jw&cad=rja

You ignorant simple.....I just cant say it, its that prehistoric! The human race is now a fool to itself, and any simpleton that can read, can figure it out. The god thing, are you for real? but you are, that's the big scarey that drives you to hunt others you don't even know...........but that don't matter, does it! You want to make your homeland look like +BC after births, go for it! The shame is on you.

LEAP
Posted by Quantumleap, Monday, 8 August 2011 11:55:07 PM
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Hi Lexi,

That NM article and the attached comments go only so far - it and most of the comments are really pretty superficial. There is a multitude of ways to be reactionary - Aryan supremacism, Salafist Islamism, Christian fumdamentalism, Hinduist fundamentalism. One could even say that, while open and formally democratic societies are all broadly similar in their (at least formal) recognition of equality, liberty and democratic principles, reactionary ideologies are different in their specific focuses.

But they do have one aspect in common: as well as their primary target (non-believers, Muslims, non-whites, etc.), they all oppose human equality, respect for diversity, freedom of expression - all of the social and political innovations of the post-Enlightenment. Indeed, they all seek to retreat to, and re-impose a pre-Enlightenment vision on the world, by force, and anything goes in order to serve that agenda.

So they are at least as likely to use their terror-weapons on liberals, democrats, Marxists, humanists - on anybody who seems to be free and easy about equality in social relations, who speaks their mind, or who is more or less comfortable living in a democratic system. That's a huge grab-bag, I know, but it points to the commonalities of all of those reactionary fundamentalisms: they seek to control people, either by forcing their submission to their ideology, or by terror - in short, they seek the unity of religion/ideology and the state.

Many on the Left are not immune to this hankering to return to some mythical Golden Age before the Enlightenment, before capitalism, before industrialisation and globalisation: much of their anti-capitalism has that reactionary tinge to it, it has to be said. Hence, I suspect, they soft-pedal on Islamist terrorism and - with Breivik - try to have a field-day with some aspect of white, Western, Christian terrorism.

Yes, Breivik's murder of nearly eighty innocent people was evil. And how many innocent people have been killed in the past week, and the week before that, by Islamist reactionaries, in Pakistan, Somalia, Iraq ?

I wait for the day when NM tells the whole wtory.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Tuesday, 9 August 2011 1:24:35 PM
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Poor dear closet communists, "denial is not a river in Egypt".

You are riding a wave of your own creation. the PC, Thought Police created moral, ethical DE generation & now are trying to blame conservatives.

http://www.mercatornet.com/family_edge/view/9461/ Breivik was made crazy by communists, simple as that.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/health/8281168/aggressive-aussie-ladettes-on-the-rise more of your communist perversions.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgHI1r-KBpg&feature=youtube_gdata Hatred breeds hatred, what part of that don't you communists understand?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5871651411393887069# throw in some lies to the people & they just might get angry with you, who would have thunk it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIHeBJNFS1g make it worse by inviting migrants who don't like your people & maybe everybody will get angry?

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/8282973/fresh-outbreaks-of-violence-in-london apparently you idiots still dont get it?

You Loony Left humanities academics did this, why are you so surprised?

Everything is going exactly according to plan.

http://www.academia.org/the-origins-of-political-correctness/

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

http://www.rense.com/general32/americ.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JarRIC4rS1M

How much of the above had been coming true in the land of OZ? right now?

Did you really think the sheeple are all so stupid that nobody would work it out & blame you instead of the capitalists?
Posted by Formersnag, Tuesday, 9 August 2011 4:25:49 PM
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Dear Joe (Loudmouth),

I agree with you that the issue is a complex one.
Communities or societies that are hostile to one
another often use religion/culture/politics,
as an ideological weapon, emphasizing differences
in faith/beliefs, in order to justify conflict.

The medieval Crusades for example, appear at first
sight to have been a purely religious conflict in
which European Christians were trying to recover
the Holy Land from Muslims. A closer analysis
suggests an additional reason, however, The
European nobility launched the Crusades partly
to gain control of the trade routes to the East
and partly to divert widespread unrest among
their peasantry.

Similarly, contemporary conflict between Jews and
Muslims in the Middle East may seem to arise from
religious differences, but the tension is really
over competing claims by two different ethnic
groups, the Israelis and the Palestinians, for
the same homeland. In much the same way,
the conflict in Northern Ireland seemed on the
surface to be one between Catholics and Protestants,
but its roots were much deeper in ethnic and class
divisions between Irish of native descent and those
descended from British settlers.

Anyway, these challenges tend to come from movements
near the finges of society, or from dissident groups
or individuals (in Norway's case). In many of the
highly unequal and impoverished members of society -
some tend to embrace their own version of "Liberation."
Hence tragedy strikes.

I personally found the site I gave as a warning. And a
good one - showing what can result with an increasingly toxic
culture that is plagued by incivility
and extremist rhetoric.
It should serve as a warning to us all.
Posted by Lexi, Tuesday, 9 August 2011 7:04:13 PM
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The main cause of the worldwide spread of islamophobia is the raving and rantings of hate-crazed fundamentalists who openly are laying claim to the country that has been stupid enough to let them in and let them stay after their claims of annexation to the Third Caliphate.Go through the recent history of places like London.These maggots want nothing short of ending democracy, the installation of sharia law only and the repression of women and denial of education for all girls and young women. Some would even like to ban all women from driving cars.
Posted by socratease, Tuesday, 9 August 2011 8:45:42 PM
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It will be interesting to see if you do get a reply to those questions, stevenlmeyer.

Surely, Mr. Morgan who has a Ph.D and has done 10 years of further research since then can come up with a better argument that labelling opposing views as "fascist." It boggles the mind that someone with a doctorate thinks labelling those with opposing views as "fascist" is actually a valid argument. Surely he would have had to learn about the art of dialectics? Surely he has done research into the tribal nature of human beings?
As I stated before, if "fascist" is the rationale used to defeat those who oppose him, then, by his own logic, he too is a fascist for opposing contrary views.
Posted by Aristocrat, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 10:33:31 AM
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Dear Socratease,

The problem is how do you tell who's a fundamentalist -
be it Christian, Muslim or any other? Look at the
violence in our own society. How many Muslims go around
bashing people here, how many rape old ladies, get into
fights at football games, bash taxi drivers, attack old
people, or get into fights in nightclubs and pubs?
We need to look at the bigger picture.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 10:36:02 AM
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Thanks, Lexi, but I think you might be missing my point. What you write is of course true, as far as it goes, but not all that relevant. What I was trying to get across referred to the willingness of individuals and groups, of a multitude of warped persuasions, to go beyond dialogue and seek to impose their views on others using the most violent methods. In their view, the 'purity' of their religion or ideology justifies the use of terror. They have contempt (and fear) for civilized discourse, for the freedoms and rights of other people, of non-believers, and probably even feel MORE 'pure' after committing their horrific acts, shooting or blowing up innocent people.

What they have in common - Christian, Aryan, Islamist, Hinduist, whatever, fundamentalists - is fear and hatred of change, of engagement with the outside world, of the extension of rights to women and minorities and their consequent involvement in the cultural and political life of rapidly changing societies. So the ideologies of both Breivik and the Salafists are monocultural, anti-women, anti-minorities and ultimately anti-modern freedoms. Characteristically, they would prefer a return to the days of the pre-Enlightenment.

So it is quite grotesque for anybody, Left or Right, to soft-pedal on the condemnation of their terrorism, whether Breivik's (from the right) or the Salafists (weirdly, from the Left). Their ideologies are reactionary, pure and simple, and there can be no apology for any of them. Such fundamentalisms are the enemies of human rights and freedoms, of individuality, of diversity and of human progress.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 10:55:28 AM
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Lexi,you're an intelligent person and you are so well adjusted but you didnt understand my point. Ofcourse there are and always will be,unfortunately, the muggers,rapists and other sorts of crims we have to deal with but nothing comes anywhere more threatening than threat to ones traditions and culture that slam poses by the very nature of their religionand culture. The two cannot and will not co-exist in peace and harmony.
We have all the pacifists and those addicted to the extremes of human rights and will fight to enforce their take on the issues and call for us to make all the sacrifices tll eventually our traditions and culture will soon be eroded to the point that they will eventually disappear.
Do we really want this to happen?

socratease
Posted by socratease, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 1:16:01 PM
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Sorry, King Hazza, "barely factor"? That's just plain wrong.

>>"Islamophobia" would barely factor into the greater part of Breveik's anxieties<<

It troubled him sufficiently to write over a hundred pages on the topic in the section "Modern Jihad" alone. None of it complimentary, I can assure you.

Have you actually read the document yet? I suspect not, because if you had, you wouldn't have made such an elementary error.
Posted by Pericles, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 1:25:16 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215124

Lexi, the crime stats in Britain & Europe show Islam is over represented in Prison, especially when it comes to sex crimes against women, well over 90% muslim.

Why do you want to get more women & girls raped?

Don't try to pretend that you don't already know this, Breivik's manifesto was full of info on this.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215125

Loudmouth, i will ask you again, What about communist fundies? like you. Serious christians have not been killing people for centuries, as you well know.

Centrist & Right wing democrats are not now & never have been ANTI women, as you well know. Misogyny is entirely Left Wing & Islam, as you well know.

the RED flag is burning, not flying, give up, admit you have been wrong about everything, repent & you can be forgiven. Continue with this closet communist, corporate paedophilia & you will end up before a royal commission on closet communism, a senate committee on UN australian activitees.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215134

socratease, Lexi is a feminist, in other words so deluded she does not realise that when we have sharia law, she will be first in line for being stoned to death, along with all the GLBT types & Loony Lefties.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215136

Poor pericles, still trying to ignore "the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth".
Posted by Formersnag, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 2:24:10 PM
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You make an incisive point, Formersnag, but I do make a mealy-mouthed distinction between 'Communist' and 'Marxist' - yes, Communist totalitarianism has exterminated many millions of 'class enemies', intellectuals, dissidents, kulaks, rich and 'middle'peasants, Jews, minorities. I like to think that Marx would have been appalled.

But Christian fundamentalism ? Okay, not as many vile terrorist acts have been carried out recently in the name of Christianity, or some variant, as the Salafists have achieved: it's probably been some time since Christians blew up women and children in market-places and maternity hospitals. But after all, both Franco's and Milosevic's troops engaged in exterminations after being blessed by their priests. And Timothy McVeigh ?

But to get back to the topic: the point about fundamentalisms is the willingness of their adherents to go beyond human decency, to utterly devalue human life, to set aside human rights and freedoms and, in effect, to retreat to a barbaric conception of human beings - ultimately, if they could, to exterminate the entire non-believing world, in order to leave the world only to the believers. Invariably, they oppose the genuine rights and participation of women and minorities in their societies - in fact, all individual autonomy and diversity. As did Communism.

So yes, Communism as has been practised has been just another form of totalitarianism, of fundamentalism, if you like. But rather than representing just a retreat to earlier forms of barbarism, it attempted to build an entirely new form of society, a barbarism for the future. But even Communists tried to set aside the ideals of the Enlightenment, rather than build on them. In that sense, Communism was a retreat from modernity, from human rights and personal autonomy.

Out of the closet at last !
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 4:08:00 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215149

good to hear we are making progress Joe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Weishaupt but remember communism/marxism was invented by this man & his team of Jesuit humanities academics on behalf of the Pope, as a reactionary, counter revolutionary, strategy to slow down or stop "the enlightenment/protestant christianity" from continuing to democratise the world, as it had started to do all over North America, Britain & Europe.

Happy, harmonious, life marriages, in healthy, functional, extended families/clans/tribes sound like cohesive social units or communes to me, yet the "socialists/communists" have been working to destroy this for almost a century? Why is that?

Peaceful, democratic religions like protestant christianity are also opposed/destroyed to be replaced with the gospel according to Marx & deifying "the dear leader". Why is that?

Answer it was all a con from the start.
Posted by Formersnag, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 4:49:08 PM
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I certainly don't pretend to have all the answers.
But according to a classic study by Theodore
Adorno and his associates done a few decades ago -
found that: some people have a distinctive
set of traits, including conformity, intolerance, and
insecurity that seemed typical of many prejudiced
people. Those who had this personality pattern were
found to be submissive to superiors, and bullying to
inferiors. They tended to have anti-intellectual
and anti-scientific attitudes; they were disturbed by any
ambiguity in sexual or religious matters; and they
saw the world in very rigid and stereotyped terms.

Adorno claimed this type of personality was a product
of a family environment in which the parents were cold,
aloof, discriplinarian, and themsleves bigoted.

Therefore what he was saying, I guess, was that some
people were psychologically more prone to prejudice
than others. Another consistent feature of prejudiced
thought was that it was irrational - illogical and
inconsistent. For example Adorno found that prejudiced
people often believed mutually contradictory
statements about groups they disliked. For example,
most subjects who disliked Jews for keeping to
themselves, also disliked them for intruding too much.
Similarly, those who disliked them for being too
capitalistic and for controlling business also
disliked them for being too communistic and subversive
of business. Those who disliked them for being
too miserly also disliked them for giving money to
charity as a means of gaining prestige, and so on.

Clearly, prejudiced people are not concerned about
genuine group characteristics; they simply accept
any negative statement that feeds their existing
hostility.

Therefore in answer to the question - "Is global
Islamophobia to blame for the Oslo massacres?"
No. it was the act of an individual - and his set
of prejudices.
Posted by Lexi, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 6:33:05 PM
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You heard me Pericles- 'barely factor'
Considering every single post of his complains about the marxists, the left-wing, and only a few among these anti-left tirades does he mention Muslims, others multiculturalism and a fair few he discusses right-wing causes, stigma and the Tea Party movement- I'd say he very much IS someone who is caught up in the 'left/right-conflict' to an extreme extent- Islamophobia would feed it a lot but to saying that he's motivated by this alone is clearly untrue- he sees Islam as one of his problems- and the 'Liberal left" as the cause of ALL his problems.

It is obvious he desires a profound conservative culture- and rails against everything that is not.

In fact, his stance paints his culture against muslims, multiculturalism, marxists, liberals, nazis, anarchism, humanism, globalism, etc- even percieving them as the same crowd (and the Labor Party the enforcer of all these things) he is a carbon copy of the American conservative, or even the kind of mindset promoted by Murdoch media.

Believe me when I say I can identify that mindset
Posted by King Hazza, Wednesday, 10 August 2011 6:41:38 PM
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I'm sure you can, King Hazza.

>>Believe me when I say I can identify that mindset<<

I'm pretty sure that you also identify *with* that mindset, too.

Still doesn't make your point though.

>>...saying that he's motivated by this alone is clearly untrue<<

I'll agree with that. But there is a massive distance between "solely motivated" by Islamophobia and your suggestion that it "barely factor". It runs through the entire document as a unifying thread.

Here's a good one, from Formersnag:

>>...the crime stats in Britain & Europe show Islam is over represented in Prison, especially when it comes to sex crimes against women, well over 90% muslim<<

That is not only a total falsehood, it is a totally malicious falsehood.

Try this reality for a moment:

http://www.cps.gov.uk/publications/docs/CPS_VAW_report_2010.pdf

Quoting the data on rape - page 40, if you are interested in facts, as opposed to fear-and-smear...

"Ethnicity data on defendants is collected by the CPS in accordance with the agreed CJS definitions for the 16+1 ethnic categories. In 2009-10, 65% of rape crime defendants were categorised as White, similar to the previous year. Of these, 59% were identified as belonging to the White British category."

Ummm, what was that you said again?

>>Poor pericles, still trying to ignore "the truth, the whole truth & nothing but the truth".<<

Sorry, Formersnag. You have been caught out in a brazen, vindictive, hate-filled lie.

You should feel ashamed of yourself, of course. But I have yet to find any trace of self-awareness among the fear-and-loathing brigade.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 12 August 2011 3:18:42 PM
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LOL. Just caught up with this topic again.

Serious christians have not been killing people for centuries?

A link to an article about Breivik's broken family life establishes blame for his actions on communists?

Another link about misbehaving girls out on the town cements the proof of communist perversion?

Inquisitions into 'closet communism'?

Fair dinkum eh?

To blame anyone or anything but Breivik himself, and the way his religious conservative beliefs and phobias influenced his decision to become a terrorist, not only makes him unaccountable for his actions, absolves him of responsibility but defines communism by socialising the blame.
Posted by Neutral, Friday, 12 August 2011 4:32:59 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215160

Lexi, do you repeat that mantra to yourself in the mirror every morning, it is classic PC, Thought Police, closet communist, self oppression.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

this is a "neutral" authoritative review of your "idol" aporno. i have plenty more where that came from if you are intersted.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215161

KH, i would say you have identified what motivated Breivik very well, poor anders is very intelligent & got all of his criticisms quite correct, he just chose violence as a way of dealing with them instead of democracy.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215304

Pericles, at it again i see. i say britain AND Europe, so you ignore every other country in Europe, quote 1 single study produced by a closet communist government, which would have as they always do, fudged their "rubbery" figures.

Pericles, i fear nothing as you well know. i am a moderate centrist who has had a gutful of both the loony left & raving right.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215315

Neutral, by name perhaps but not by nature, you claim he has "phobias" or mental illnesses, then go on to say that despite being crazy, he alone is responsible & the people who fu*^%# with his head till he was crazy, are not to blame at all. where did you learn that logic? from Pericles or Lexi?
Posted by Formersnag, Friday, 12 August 2011 5:37:03 PM
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Formersnag (Currentclosetcommunist),

I made no reference at all in my post to mental illness or being crazy.

Establishing your bonafides as an incoherent paranoid is not an excuse for putting words into my mouth.

Persistently socialising the blame only enhances your inner communist, the thing you fear the most.

Submit yourself for an Inquisition and let it all hang out. Be free!
Posted by Neutral, Friday, 12 August 2011 6:21:59 PM
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Dear Formersnag,

I would love to respond to you and I will
when you have something intelligent to say.
Posted by Lexi, Friday, 12 August 2011 9:18:17 PM
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Hope you're not holding your breath Lexi.
Posted by Neutral, Saturday, 13 August 2011 2:52:11 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215324

poor dear neutral, What is a Phobia? if it is not some form of mental illness. the word you used.

Ah yes when you have no argument use sarcasm.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=12431#215333

Oh Lexi, the old i won't give him oxygen gambit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfJ9dVo-jv4&feature=related not laughing, you need to relax.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24sjYlydAuw&feature=share does this explain your behaviour? see if you recognise any of your own behaviour in this series? have a look at this one too Neutral?
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 13 August 2011 4:27:09 PM
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Silly unhinged Comrade666,

What is a phobia? It is a fear. Having a fear of heights is not a mental illness.

Oh no. When you are an incoherent paranoid you will invent stuff to maintain self righteousness. Just like a good communist.

And no. I'm not looking at your stupid links. No connection between the first few I looked at and your references could be made.

No sarcasm intended. Just paying due respect.

Amen
Posted by Neutral, Saturday, 13 August 2011 5:25:04 PM
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I have to admit to a changing attitude to Muslims although the transformation is by no means complete as yet. Questions remain. Old habits and prejudices die slowly.
I have met a number of muslims and watched representatives of the Islamic community on various TV shows viz Q&A and Insight to name a couple where I have been pleasantly surprised by the liberal and fair comments they have made, comments I subscribe to myself. If all muslims were like these we would have nothing to fear. Fear activites phobias. I felt reassured and accepting.
All we phobics really want and have a right to expect is that they should have their own places of worship, their own schools open to supervision & inspection, free to enjoy any form of employment, even the armed services,police and customs.If they can integrate and accept our lifestyle and democratic laws and freedom for all women and no persecution of those who do not agree with the conservative form of Islam then we should accept them openly and freely with no fear nor favour. I would love to have that happen.

socratease
Posted by socratease, Saturday, 13 August 2011 7:39:56 PM
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Did Bin Laden and his henchmen attack the Twin Towers because of their Americanophobia? Yes, I would say so.

Was it because of their fear of how the Western world might modernize the thinking of their people and change the Iman's powerbase(read economic survival source) if they lost that power over the people and also change the male dominance powerbase.

Thus the Imans teach Westerncivilizationaphobia in their mosques. This preaching of American-westerncivilization-aphobia also resulted in the Bali Bombings because it was drummed into the worshippers by Abu Bashir.

I would say that the Islamists had the phobia that started all this conflict first.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 13 August 2011 10:48:01 PM
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George Morgan-

What about your Americanaphobia and your and anti Westerncivilizationaphobia.

You left wing hippie academics have been teaching this bias in
schools for much too long. You lie by omission, because while teaching that the West has all these phobias and hatreds towards muslims and others, you do not balance your teachings with the truth that muslins and many others in the world have these same biases, phobias and hatreds towards the west. Politically incorrect is it?

Teach only the truth or else you misinform.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 13 August 2011 11:21:20 PM
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So Pericles, when someone makes several hundred rants, and
-absolutely all of them are scathing attacks on the 'marxists'
-But Muslims take up probably half, and data on other cultures and races in general, the stigma and promotion of the right, rants about socialism, internationalism etc; each only make a smaller overall ratio of his favorite topics;
I've read enough about him to notice that he percieves the world as between the 'right wing' (harsh economics, harsh social policy, no cultural interraction, harsh political policy, conservative social values) is his perfect system- but the 'left wing' (percieved in extreme light as marxists, socialists) causing the exact opposite of everything he holds dear, and percieves an imminent disaster from a socialist, multicultural society.
Subtract the Muslims in Norway, he'd just rant some more about socialism and other races instead- and he would be almost as likely to carry out his attacks, because the 'left' are still taking away all he thinks he holds dear.

So being polarized against ALL of that (showing similar views as Fox news, and our own Australian newspaper) implies a much deeper problem than stereotyping Muslims; he's been brainwashed by a movement that stereotypes everything that isn't themselves to a dangerously hostile degree, and makes him believe his nation is in some kind of war with a more 'extreme' left than really exists.
This movement can correspond to ANY cause, and my point is that we shouldn't be ignoring it. In fact, we should try to notice what these kinds of hostile left/right cultures actually take people, and try to back away from them- as opposed to the 'right' coming out at his defense pretending he's "just crazy", and the 'left' trying to score brownie points for it.
Posted by King Hazza, Sunday, 14 August 2011 10:34:39 AM
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Dear Pericles and others,

I found this interesting website that I think
may add something to our discussion:

http://newmatilda.com/2011/08/10/pointing-finger-norway
Posted by Lexi, Sunday, 14 August 2011 12:27:53 PM
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