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The Forum > Article Comments > Veil request has already been covered > Comments

Veil request has already been covered : Comments

By Nazeem Hussain, published 11/7/2011

It is already the law that women wearing a burqa must uncover if required for identification by the police.

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The article is not entirely correct. The police have the right to ask for identification by any person. A person wearing a burqa could offer a drivers license and would fulfil her obligations, and the law as to whether the police officer has the right to order the removal of the face covering is murky. but, without a comparison between the ID photo and the actual face, the identity cannot be confirmed beyond doubt.

The case in question confirmed this point where the complainant successfully had a conviction overturned as the original proof of identity could not be proven beyond reasonable doubt, as the officer had not been able to compare the face to the id document.
Posted by Shadow Minister, Monday, 11 July 2011 9:37:56 AM
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I am amused, wryly, by what Nazeem has written. I respect her right to write, expressing her viewpoint, while I disagree. An Australian woman who covers her face does it, knowing that she is living in Australia. One issue cited for covering up by converts to Islam include their feeling of increased safety and comfort. I have no problem with that. I believe that many non-Muslim people find the niqab intimidating and would hesitate to ask someone to remove it. That is the reason that women wear it- so their faces are looked upon by a restricted number of men. I understand the point regarding the fact that the capacity to check who the woman is is available in Australia; I understand that women who wear the niqab are making a statement, which I as a Christian am not advised or allowed to make in Muslim countries. I am not saying "They should go back where they come from"; I am saying "They are mature enough to act with respect to the customs and laws of the country in which they live." I would say the same if it were men wearing face covers, as they can do in Northern Africa.
Posted by wonderwoman123, Monday, 11 July 2011 11:07:50 AM
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I think the point is being missed.
The niquab is an insult to Australian men.
It presumes that any man seeing her face is liable to assault her or
otherwise act improperly. The assumption may not be by the woman
herself but by the men in her family.

However if I am wrong, then why do men not wear the niquab ?

I suspect it is caused by the behavior of moslem men who are notorious
to molesting western women in their countries.
It seems to be that they have no self control and perhaps is another
indication of their problem arising from generations of cousin marriage.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 11 July 2011 12:57:38 PM
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CATCH-22
(1) Even if there is a law requiring the revealing of ones face for identification by police, how can it be enforced ? If a person refuses to reveal their face (and thus commits an offence) how could that (unidentifiable) person be charged with the offence in a way that would later stand up in court ?
Short of on-the-spot arrest and forcible removal of the face-covering, what could the police do ?
(2) With the potential for false allegations of harassment and assault, will it become necessary for all police to carry video cameras in future ?
Posted by StefanL, Monday, 11 July 2011 1:00:26 PM
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StefanL said;
will it become necessary for all police to carry video cameras in future ?

Funny you should say that. Some police forces are equipping their
members with cameras and recorders on their uniforms.

Police are already complaining that they are encumbered with so many
accouterments that they cannot run after offenders.

If they are handling an offence they could use force to remove clothing.
They do that now when conducting searches. All they have to do is
use the existing rules.
Posted by Bazz, Monday, 11 July 2011 1:25:43 PM
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Picture this ; an anonymous person driving a car stops at a Primary School and opens fire with a machine gun thirty six children are killed the car speeds off , later found abandoned by police and proved to have been stolen , no finger prints are found .
What a dilemma was the murderer male or female , what ethnicity ?
Posted by Garum Masala, Monday, 11 July 2011 4:42:16 PM
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The only opinion I can add to this problem with dress, if the wearer does not obey the laws of the country they are now in, then for goodness sake pack up and go back to the country from whence you came, then you will have no problems.
The people of Australia soon will see how Sharia law will take over, it will be unfortunate as we are a very easy and free country, we do not need special religious rooms in schools, special banks for their needs with banking, swimming pools segrated at the taxpayers expense for swimming,billboards displaying their religion or Halal meat outlets, you came here to be in one of the best countries in the world so stop trying to change it, we do not need your way of life so please pack up and return to where you feel comfortable with all of your conditions, WAKE UP AUSTRALIA BEFORE IT IS TOO LATE
Posted by Ojnab, Monday, 11 July 2011 5:30:10 PM
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No person has the wright to publicly disguise their appearance, ALL members of our society should be entitled to be able to identify any and all persons and give evidence before any potential offence is committed, ANY person who is publicly disguising themselves is acting in an offencive manner and they should be removed from all public places!
Posted by lockhartlofty, Monday, 11 July 2011 8:58:41 PM
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When this stupidity with the Multiculturalism will stop.
our beautiful country is defaced and degrade by demand from minorities.
People that don't not assimilate don't not belong here.Law supposed to be one for all.
By tolerating various culture we supposed to be culturally enriched not dominated.An this is what is happening. Possibilities all ready exist that we Australian became a minority in our country.I remember wen after a fizikal altercation we shake hands and haw a drink together,now next thing to expect is a bullet or knife.Our government is tolerating this misbehavior for an unknown reason.
Posted by jimdimo, Monday, 11 July 2011 10:48:41 PM
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Shopkeepers have the right to refuse entry to anyone who has taken steps to prevent being identified, such as wearing any item of clothing that covers their face or substantial parts thereof. It is not discriminatory, provided they advise potential clients of that fact prior to entry, by entering, the clients have accepted the requirements upon entry laid down by the proprietor (in the same way as the "proprietor reserves the right to require handbags or carry bags to be presented for inspection").

However, soon enough the law will have to be changed in order to clarify the situation, thanks no doubt to equally blatant stupidity.

Here's a hint, if you are wearing clothing that tells the world that you are a devout Muslim woman, who is endeavouring to act in compliance with the stricter interpretations of Islamic Culture, please don't be surprised to find that your credibility is utterly shot when it comes out that you are unmarried, have umpteen children to various fathers and live in a sinful (in the eyes of Islam) de-facto relationship. I'm not being racist (how could I be? She's anglo-celtic like me), or xenophobic, I'd feel equally disgusted at such a blatant con carried out by someone dressed as a member of any ultra-strict religious group, who plays upon the most advantageous parts thereof, whilst conveniently ignoring the troublesome details associated with the rest of their pose.

Muslim Australian's should be rather more outraged at the cow who bought things to this point, by pretending outwardly to be a devout Muslim, she really didn't help your cause, did she?
Posted by Custard, Tuesday, 12 July 2011 1:49:33 AM
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@ Stefani.
I think Police stop and searches and other interactions with the Muslim community are adequately covered by video recording.
The usual sequence of events goes something like:
-Car full of youths of "Middle Eastern Appearance" is pulled over by Police.
-A text message goes out to all the brothers, cousins and gang cronies.
- The Police are quickly surrounded by a crowd of jeering, intimidating young men who use their phones to video their threats and insults to the Police.

People who assume that Middle Easterners are even on the same wavelength as the rest of society have never spent any time living among them.
These are people who will turn out in the tens and even hundreds to obstruct and threaten Police when they raid a drug house or arrest a dealer.

Being around their communities is profoundly depressing, they're almost universally angry,violent and unpredictable, the women included. They are suspicious to the point of paranoia,they are intolerant, pushy and unreasonable.
They are , in my experience unique in this regard,Asians, Indians, Aboriginals etc all seem to take some joy in life even though they may share the same material circumstances, you go to Glenroy or Broadmeadows and you just encounter in the Muslims a grim, surly, and at times downright nasty people.
I expect the usual responses to this post but anyone who lives in Western Sydney or Northwestern Melbourne knows exactly what I'm talking about, it's not just a "minority" of Muslims who are like this it's a great majority.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Tuesday, 12 July 2011 8:51:33 PM
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