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The Forum > Article Comments > Project Bantu: refugee youth finding their way through Capoeira Angola > Comments

Project Bantu: refugee youth finding their way through Capoeira Angola : Comments

By Kali Goldstone and Raphael Brasil, published 21/6/2011

A holistic approach to refugee resettlement in Australia through Afro-Brazilian culture.

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One gets the impression, from reading this article, that the primary reason for importing African blacks is to create more social problems for social workers to deal with. As if Australia does not have more than enough problems to deal with with our own blacks.

I was amused to read that most of the "students" are "late for class". Is that because they have absolutely no interest in this expensive humanitarian program financed entirely by the Australian taxpayer? If they apparently have little interest in the program, one wonders why thay even turn up at all? Is it because they have to go because the courts have told them to get counselling or go to jail?

Unsurprisingly, the article laments that the Australian government is not providing more funds to this program. What Australia apparently needs, is a lot more well paid sociologists, psychiatrists, witch doctors, tribal leaders, and social workers to deal with the endless problems of the people we import.

The history of the importation of blacks into white western societies has always been a social catastrophe for the whites. The only positive result of this importation, is to provide plenty of work for police, prison officers, lawyers, judges, and of course, social workers. Another questionable benefit is that the world saver class can point at the total dysfunction of black communities as positive proof of how oppresive white western capitalism is.

Since their tiny minds are convinced that all races are equal in every way, including mental attributes, then the only possible explanation for black dysfunction must be the oppression of blacks by whites. Therefore, they know that the incredibly high crime rates and welfare dependency exhibited by every black community can always be explained away by white racism, with a little bit of pushing and shoving of the facts.

I really fear for the future of this country. With the examples of European countries going broke, and their once safe streets infested with all sorts of imported undesireables who have imported terrorism, skyrocketting crime rates and serious social strife, why does Australia persist in emulating failure?
Posted by LEGO, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 7:16:48 AM
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Well said LEGO.
Posted by ozzie, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 7:34:30 AM
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I also agree in the main , with the above comments.

Further more , I have has for some time a radical( good word.. Eh? ) solution to our refugee " problem.

Without doubt our generosity is being abused , by a host of people and groups including Indivudals, People smugglers and the UN body "responsible" for looking after Refugees.

We should withdrawn from the UN Refugee Convention.. thus being as one with the rest of ASIA!

THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT WE NO LONGER TAKE REFUGEES.

What it will means is that WE CHOOSE .. WHO.. WHEN and HOW !
Posted by Aspley, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 10:41:40 AM
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Yes we can choose who comes here, however we cannot choose those who are born here.

:P
Posted by Ammonite, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 11:18:26 AM
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Hi there LEGO...

I couldn't fault the thrust of your arguement nor your appraisal of what is going on with those Blacks that have already been brought here.

Fortunately, I've retired from the job and generally have not needed to deal with those to whom you refer. However, many of my former colleagues have, and it's really very very hard to do your job, essentially because of their skin colour.

One thing I can predict, unequivocally. We (Australia) shall lament the day that we've adopted such a soft and squishy policy with these people. Together with certain other imported elements within our community, by permitting them to prescribe to us what laws of ours they select to obey, and what others they refuse to assume.

The problem now, I believe it's all too late ! We've lost the initiative and we now have to cop it, and realize there's two stratum of the law. One for the majority of Australians, the other, for those who fit into an altogether different demographic; that of selected and insulated Blacks !

Should you doubt me, understand they have separate Koori Magistrate's Courts in Melbourne ?
Posted by o sung wu, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 5:23:32 PM
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I thought there was something familar about this thread and it dawned on me that one of the authors is the same that wrote the waffle here a few days ago abour 'womens rights'

Well she has not improved. You will notice that despite a lot of words there is no explanation of what project bantu or Capoeira Angola is about or exactly what they are trying to achieve.

After 4 pages one still does not know what they are talking about.

Same waffle and they are both going for Masters in Journalism!

Says a lot about the standard of journalism in this country.
Posted by Banjo, Tuesday, 21 June 2011 11:46:36 PM
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I’m deeply saddened by these comments. I suppose I belong to the ‘world saver class’, as Lego describes, whom with our tiny minds seem to be convinced that all races are equal in every way. Ironically the tiny minds which seems apparent here are the ones which so explicitly reveal their xenophobia and ignorance for the world and its evolution. Lego, says he fears for the future of Australia, as do I in receipt of his racist, misinformed and malaligned views on history and sociology (‘the importation of blacks into white western societies has always been a social catastrophe for the whites’). I was even more disturbed to find that Lego had supporters: Ozzie, Ammonite, Aspley O Sung Wu and Banjo. Who had equally challenged views.

The article I read was about a program set up for young people who ‘have often experienced high levels of trauma. Many have witnessed violence directly or indirectly through the experience of dispossession, conflict, living in refugee camps or coming from dismantled families and fragmented communities.’ A program helping them to rehabilitate and integrate into society and the problems they and the project faces.

We are the fortunate ones who never experience being displaced and disenfranchised and who can sit back and bemoan refugees coming into our country and ‘our generosity being abused’. I seem to recall similar arguments with the Displaced Persons Scheme in 1947 - then the undesirables were Italians and Cypriots and Greeks and Maltese... And I wonder how many of us are products of the Populate or Perish policy adopted by a post WW2 Australian government? And how quickly we forget.

The world is evolving whether we like it or not. Whilst we sit at home and ignore and inure ourselves to the world at large we all have a responsibility to one another, regardless of race or birth nationality. Seriously people realise the ‘truth is exactly the same size as the universe’ and with narrow eyes we see less of the truth.
Posted by tonti, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 3:51:26 AM
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I am reminded of Pastor Martin Niemoller’s poem:

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me
Posted by tonti, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 3:52:36 AM
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What Ammonite and tonti said. How appalling that such openly racist sentiment still persists in 21st century Australia.

I recommend that purveyors of such hateful tripe should be made to watch the fascinating series "Go Back to Where You Came From", which started screening last night. The initial episode provides hope that even the most inveterate dinky-di racists have some hope of enlightenment and, hence, redemption.

http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/goback
Posted by morganzola, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 5:07:05 AM
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tonti & morgonzola,
I think you have compassion but you're totally lacking foresight. On the other hand, if you're members of those groups then you should make up your mind where your allegiance is. Think if you want leave your problems behind or proliferate them here. You see, nothing to do with race or culture, it's all to do with attitude. Many people claim to have compassion but that compassion somehow ceases when it comes to compassion for the host to try & maintain harmony. Or are you saying that the harmony in this country is not being jeopardised by radical imports ?
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 6:43:09 AM
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Dear Tonti

The real test for intelligence is one who accepts the truth “though the heavens may fall”. I would just love to believe that all races are equal, but self evidently, they are not. I was once a humanitarian idealist “world saver” such as yourself, who was opposed to racism. Unfortunately, the only explanation for black dysfunction that the purveyors of my conditioned ideology could think up was "Blame the White Guys for Everything." You can not train me to recognize racism, and then object when I see it directed at my own people.

My response, was to ignore all of my previous cultural conditioning, switch on my objective reasoning ability, and examine the facts dispassionately. After removing my ideological blinkers, it became obvious to me that the races were not equal at all. Generally speaking, Asians are smarter than whites, and whites are (generally speaking) a lot smarter than blacks. That does not mean that there are no smart blacks. Stanford University only accepts students on the basis of their (IQ) SAT scores, and some blacks are very smart and can get admittance.

But the fact remains that we have Australian people in this country who are a lot more deserving of government aid than imported African Bantu’s. The importation of such people will simply become a drain on our resources, which are already inadequate to help people such as Dawn Joyce and her schizophrenic son, who has written the OLO article “Who Cares.”

You may think that Australia is a land of natural prosperity with unbounded resources where money grows on trees. But in 1953, there were 35 workers for every person on welfare while today it is 7 to 1. You only have to extrapolate forward to realize that this trend is unsustainable. Bringing people into this country who are unable to contribute to the Commonwealth, and who instead impose a never ending drain upon our exchequer, means that one day, Tonti, you may wake up in a bankrupt country. Several European countries have now achieved that unenviable goal.

In Australia, Australians come first.
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 7:27:49 AM
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@ individual:

I think that harmony in this country is far more jeopardised by racism than by "radical imports", whatever they are. Also, I don't think you quite understand what "compassion" means: it's generally not something you have for yourself.
Posted by morganzola, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 7:47:19 AM
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toni "I was even more disturbed to find that Lego had supporters: Ozzie, Ammonite, Aspley O Sung Wu and Banjo. Who had equally challenged views."

That in itself is telling. Perhaps try reading the comments and re-evaluate your list.

Maybe I'd best spell it out, Ammonite appears to have made a sarcastic comment about the previous posters (it a big stretch to claim support for the previous posts).

Banjo didn't offer any support for the earlier comments, he commented on the style of writing and how difficult it is to follow. Sentiments I do agree with.

I didn't much like LEGO's comments, at the same time rather than just dismissing what they are saying you could perhaps engage and try to understand the concerns. The continued polarisation does not help Australia or those coming here to get the balance right.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 7:50:40 AM
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Many thanks Robert & Morganzola.

Tonti

My comment was nothing more than sarcasm. How else to respond to such xenophobes who preceded me on the comments thread.

To those who see colour rather than people, please watch SBS tonight at 8.30 PM, it is the second part of "Go Back To Where You Came From) - I don't expect that it will necessarily change your minds - but at least you cannot be accused of deliberate ignorance if you do watch.

You can catch up on last night's episode here:

http://www.sbs.com.au/shows/goback
Posted by Ammonite, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 9:10:16 AM
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tonti,
Where in the article is a description or explanation of what they acyually do?

There is reference to music and a couple to a 'game'.

No wonder they have trouble getting sponsorship, if she has trouble explaining what they actually do in class.

Then there was some reference to some wonderfull conference they attended in NZ, again without saying what made it so good.

Why can't they simply say what they are on about?

Sounds like a sham to me.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 9:17:02 AM
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On the contrary, Morganzola, what is fuelling racism in Australia and every other western country today, is the behaviour of some of the ethnic and religious groups that we have imported into our countries in the last thirty years.

It was once perfectly acceptable for a safe country like Australia, which was 95% white, to wag our fingers at the "racism" in other countries, and to make pious statements about about racial equality. The problem is that we have now imported people from violent cultures, and Australians are now being confronted by the fact that their former naive humanitarian attitudes were wrong all along.

Some ethnic and religious minorites are very disproportionately represented in violent criminal behaviour and welfare dependency, so it is hardly surprising that Australians today are becoming more racist as a result of it. The surest cure for those expressing just how awful racism is, is to come into contact with some of the ethnicities they have been defending.

The rule of thumb appears to be, that those most enamoured of multiculturalism, are the ones most geographicaly removed fromi its consequences. Entire suburbs of Sydney are seeing the entire white populations flee because their once safe suburbs are being invaded by tribal groups who delight in menacing whites. Ask any white schoolgirl, or any white female teacher in a school full of Muslim boys, what she thinks of multiculturalism.

When people like you talk about "racism", you mean white racism towards others. It does not even cross your mind that many ethnic and religious groups who you champion could teach the Ku Klux Klan a thing or two about racism. While you may dream about a fragmented Australian population with no recogniseable ethnic identity, some of the non white people who you are importing have no qualms about being only concerned about the interests of their own religious or ethnic groups.
Posted by LEGO, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 1:06:24 PM
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Like I said in my initial post on this particular thread...it's all too late, I'm afraid.

Perhaps, my only suggestion is - the very next time violence is occasioned upon some poor bugger; perpetrated by these individuals eg. the Sudanese and ors. - let the educated, erudite, and compassionate 'do gooders' go to the crime scene, and show us dumb coppers how to successfully manage it. And later, how to prevent similar crimes of violence occurring involving the same groups.

Regrettably, some of these people have little or no respect for police or our laws. They know we're a soft touch and short of becoming axe murderers, know they'll get away with these street crimes of violence.

Sadly, some of you haven't got a clue. Sure, your hearts are in the right place, but we live in a world where there's little truck nor regard, for a good heart !
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 2:39:22 PM
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sung wu,
I see you are a former copper and seem to know what this 'class' is all about. Can you explain in simple terms what it is about?

I am getting the feeling that these are Sudanese youths sent to this class by the courts because they have committed criminal acts. Is this so? You would never know from the article.

Are they given counceling at this class and if so what success rate do they have.

It is incredible that one has to ask another poster about the subject of an article.

Rather than the authors not having the ability to explain, maybe they don't want to say what goes on or disclose the activities. Is it a way of these youths to avoid jail?
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 5:13:15 PM
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Sadly, some of you haven't got a clue.
morgonzola,
o sung wu's words are obviously lost on you.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 6:15:35 PM
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'evening to you Banjo...

To be honest with you I'd not have a clue. The only thing that I can tell you is, whatever initiatives the Govt. or anyone else attempts to do, it simply won't work.

Not all of these people are bad, not by a long shot. But unless the Govt. levels the playing field, in terms of applying the criminal law EQUALLY to us all, with total impartiality, then I reckon we've had it.

When ordinary men and women in the street, see that the criminal law is NOT equally and evenly applied, they'll simply get their collective back's up and resent (in toto) those of whom it seems to favour. Golly, it's happening now for goodness sake ! Why oh why can't our Govt. see it !

If I was to climb on the roof of a public building, causing criminal damage 'to boot' - I'd be very quickly arrested and brought to account, just as it should be.

But eh Banjo, what do I know ? I'm just a dumb (retired) copper, and (apparently) just another redneck, racist ?
Posted by o sung wu, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 6:27:04 PM
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just a dumb (retired) copper, and (apparently) just another redneck, racist ?
o sung wu,
Not in the eyes of decent people.
Posted by individual, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 8:26:48 PM
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sung wu,
I agree with you about applying the law equally. FGM is illegal yet our government turns a blind eye to this barbaric activity, yet some parents have been charged for giving their kids a smack on the bum for misbehaving. We prosecute those holding cockfights, yet ignore little girls having pieces of flesh hacked off, because of 'cultural consideration'. Isn't that a great term?

It is only since the lady commissioner in Vic has gone that we are finding that there is a problem there with Sudanese youth. Now I am starting to find out in western Sydney as well.

If we find there are big problems with some groups integrating into our society, why do we keep importing them. Surely the care of our existing citizens should be the primary concern of the government.

I do not give a damn about a persons skin colour, heritage or religion, but I do care about that persons ability to co-exist in our society. Cohesive is a word that comes to mind.

Thanks for being candid and I wonder if any poster here actually knows what Project Banta is and can describe it and any other info about it.
Posted by Banjo, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 10:20:33 PM
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Interesting thread, and one that I can follow largely as a bystander. Where I sit is comfortably detached - here in Townsville, we still have a remarkably uniform society: we have the whites (Anglo and Italian, in the main) and the blacks (Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander, in the main). There is a growing number of 'others', but I don't come into contact with them on a regular basis. Thus I can't understand the frustration others with more multicultural everyday experiences must feel. I can imagine that it would be considerable.

One thing I can suggest is that, if we are going to introduce refugees into our community (as we already do), we need to do it properly. We can't assume that people (like many of the Sudanese refugees) who have grown up in 'kill or be killed' societies, who may have been exposed to atrocities and may have been involved in those acts, will simply condition themselves to peaceful coexistence with mainstream Australia. What 're-programming' do we offer these people? What do we do to ensure that they respect our ideals, our values and our laws, even if they don't share those values? One would assume that they come to Australia because Australia is a better place to live. What makes it a better place is the society we have already established. What good are we doing them - or us - by allowing them to reproduce their own societies here? I don't expect them to become church-going Christians, or Labor or Liberal voters, or NRL/AFL fanatics, but I think we can all reasonably expect that they respect what we have here.

I'm aware that the welfare services I'm proposing cost money, and that some would consider it money ill-spent. However, what is the financial cost compared to the social cost of a poorly implemented refugee policy?
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 22 June 2011 11:54:57 PM
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@ individual:

o sung wu's words aren't "lost on me", especially given that his comments came after mine. Rather, I agree that the law should be applied equally to all. I imagine that o sung wu's perspective is the product of his experience as a police officer, but while this makes his contribution interesting and invaluable, it doesn't invalidate other perspectives that are more compassionate. Quite the reverse: as a front line law enforcement officer he would undoubtedly have had to become hardened in his outlook in order to survive. Both perspectives have their place when it comes to dealing with refugee youth, as undoubtedly do others.

Why do you feel the need to abuse people with whom you disagree?
Posted by morganzola, Thursday, 23 June 2011 12:02:10 AM
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morgonzola,
Why do feel the need to expect others to stop protecting & forfeit what they have worked for ?
Posted by individual, Thursday, 23 June 2011 6:25:52 AM
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I feel truly saddened reading some of the comments to this story, which was written to give a voice to those who struggle to be heard. If it is true that a society should be judged on how it treats its most vulnerable members, Australia would unfortunately be judged to be a cruel and ignorant place, similar to many of these comments.

All I can feel about these comments is pity and sorrow, because the people who wrote them obviously still live in a world where people are judged by the colour of their skin - I really hope one day that you can open your eyes and see the world for the place that it truly is, where love is so much more powerful than hate.

Thank you Raphael and Kali, for shining some much needed light on what is clearly still a very dark and threatening topic for so many Australians.

PS to everyone here who speaks about "importing" people, never forget about the power of language, and how hurt you would be if someone spoke about a member of your family as a commodity divorced from any sense of human feeling.
Posted by ausinbrazil, Thursday, 23 June 2011 10:04:17 AM
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ausinbrazil,
If you understand what Project Bantu is about and exactly what it does in clas, please let me know.

An explanation would be good. Up until now it has just be incoherent waffle by the aythors.
Posted by Banjo, Thursday, 23 June 2011 4:59:11 PM
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To ausinbrazil.

Are you an ausinbrazil, or a brazilwhowantstoliveinoz?

If you are the latter, then I can well understand why you would want to flee your extremely violent country and come in live in my country. But I prefer that my country takes white people and not hispanics, because I can see what large scale hispanic immigration has done to America. There are enough violent cultures resident in my country today, and I would like to slow down the rate at which my suburbs are being turned into war zones.

I hear that things are so bad in Brazil with crime, that the police routinely shoot any criminal who becomes too much of a problem, and most of the population are happy about that, because violent crime in Brazil is right out of control. I think that the reason why crime is out of control in Brazil is because Brazil is full of Brazillians, and the reason why crime is not yet out of control in Australia is because Australians still outnumber crime prone and welfare dependent minorities that are causing most of the trouble in Australia.

So spare me the weepy moralising, because I am only concerned with the safety and security of my own people. Only a few months ago, a Sudanese man who had only been in Australia for four weeks, was convicted of going on a rampage sexually assaulting Australian women. He topped his performance by cutting a 60 year old womans throat.

He is now been sentenced to 17 years jail. That is 17 years at $70,000 dollars to support a maximum security prisonor. What was the cost/benefit analysis on that deal for Australia? We had a case here of a yugoslav drug addict housebreaker who we deported to Belgrade, who had an army of do gooders crying for him so much, that he is now back in Australia on a publically funded drugs program.

With imports like that, I wonder how long before Australia turns into Brazil?
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 24 June 2011 6:38:45 AM
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"importing"
ausinbrazil,
well, we're not exporting are we ? In any case this is a term merely used figuratively. Much in the same way the stupid use the term racist in describing us. Did you read what Lego wrote ? Did it sink in ? Some of it must have because you nor others haven't come back screaming racist or redneck.
I concur with Lego the reason why we are still a reasonable mob is because we're not so overpopulated as to not being able to control the masses like in your adopted land. It is this over population that is the crux of mankind's Nr1 problem because it is only overpopulation which causes the step by step decline of everything mankind. It's futile to simply accuse people as racist/rednecks simply because they care but do nothing to improve the situation.
Posted by individual, Friday, 24 June 2011 7:04:01 AM
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@ individual:

If what people are "protecting" and have "worked for" is a "white" Australia, then they should expect to be challenged by those of us who realise that notions of "race" serve only to create conflict. Australia has done well to shed the 19th century racial ideologies that have no place in the 21st century world, but there are evidently some "out and proud" racists who persist in trying to turn back the clock.

With respect to your response to ausinbrazil, are you being deliberately ignorant or do you really not understand their point about the dehumanising aspects of such language? One gets the impression that you deliberately set out to offend those with whom you disagree.
Posted by morganzola, Friday, 24 June 2011 8:44:54 AM
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It would be a revealing scenario if Australia was ever subject to imperialistic invasion - and the white bread sensibilities of some on this forum were challenged.

If, at some juncture, our society turned "extremely violent", it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the LEGOs and individuals (and their ilk) of this country would be the first ones flapping their checkbooks around trying to secure passage out of here.
Posted by Poirot, Friday, 24 June 2011 9:12:30 AM
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Hi LEGO

To answer your question, I’m an Australian who lives in Brazil (I suppose you could figuratively call me an “export” – apparently we exist after all, that is me and the other 86, 276 people that left Australia last year http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/05emigration.htm).

You’re right, Brazil does have its problems, just like everywhere else in the world, however these problems are more related to a history of colonial government and uneven distribution of wealth (which is an unfortunately familiar story throughout the world, and one of the many great legacies of your beloved white brethren) rather than overpopulation or some genetic predisposition to crime, a theory which you appear to subscribe to.

I also thought it might be fun to throw in a couple of facts (please note, I have chosen to use publicly-recognised statistical data rather than hand-picked anecdotes which have no doubt been sourced from Today Tonight):

1. Brazilians are not Hispanics.
2. In regards to a cost-benefit analysis of immigration in Australia, the Australian Government recently completed one on Australia’s humanitarian program (http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/_pdf/economic-social-civic-contributions-about-the-research2011.pdf), and found that it yields a “demographic dividend” due to the high rates of employment among refugees who settle in Australia, and the fact that their children are likely to be highly educated and are likely to work the majority of their lives in Australia.
3. According to the ABS, as at 30 June 2010, Australia was recorded as the country of birth for 80% (23,863) of all prisoners (sentenced and unsentenced). This was followed by New Zealand (3% or 842 prisoners), Vietnam (3% or 755) and the United Kingdom and Ireland (2% or 600).

I have been made to feel extremely welcome in Brazil, and can only hope that refugees and immigrants to Australia can one day experience the same level of courtesy. Much like Australia, Brazil is a country of immigrants, whose future prosperity depends on people living in harmony and treating each other with mutual respect – something which I hope one day we will achieve in Australia. Let's remember that our families were once immigrants to Australia too.
Posted by ausinbrazil, Friday, 24 June 2011 9:16:54 AM
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Hi ausinbrazil

Unlike Brazil, Australia does not have “problems” yet like the extrajudicial killings by police to try and control crime. Although people like yourself should be congratulated on your efforts to remedy that through the immigration of crime prone ethnicities. And if poverty causes crime, why is violent crime in Australia exploding during an age of unprecedented prosperity? And why are some of the poorest areas in rural Australia almost crime free? Perhaps you had better bone up on your criminology? No criminologist today would claim that poverty causes crime, because that is an easily disproved premise.

I see that you are another one using the “Blame the White Guy for Everything” explanation for all that ever went wrong in the world. That makes you just as big a racist as I am. Welcome to the club.

I am sure that there are plenty of official government policy papers written by recently naturalized “Australians” who are telling us just how wonderful immigration and multiculturalism is. But the only benefits which I can see, is an increase in employment opportunities for security guards, prison guards, police, lawyers, judges and an ever increasing army of social workers teaching "Bantus" to sing and dance to Brazilian sambas.

80% of prisoners may be “born in Australia” but that hardly refutes the fact that incarcerated criminals of Middle eastern, Pacific Islander, African, aboriginal, Romanian, and Vietnamese ethnicity are very disproportionately represented in violent criminal behaviour and drug trafficking. One senior police officer noted that it is the second generation “Australian born” who are most prone to committing criminal acts.

Finally, genetic predisposition to crime is already widely accepted in the scientific community. You might like to read the Australian Institute of Criminology’s publication (trends and issues, October 2003 Is There a Genetic Susceptability to Engage in Criminal Acts?)

Their conclusion? Well, ummmmm, well, the evidence is compelling, but we better keep this quiet and ignore the implications.

Food for thought, ausinbrazil, bon apetite.
Posted by LEGO, Friday, 24 June 2011 3:40:38 PM
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protecting" and have "worked for" is a "white" Australia,
morgonzola,
What exactly is your reasoning for bringing race into this ? The debate is about protecting our society which, in case you aren't aware of it, is made up of people from all over the world who came here because they appreciate what they see. Or, are you saying that the many non-white immigrants aren't interested in protecting the result of their efforts here ? Many non-whites from outside Australia obviously appreciate it why else would they take so many risks of getting here ? I think you're a fair way off the beaten track with your view of things. Have you ever tried to work for a living only to not give a hoot about protecting your aquisitions ?
You give the impression of being one of those silly ungrateful & unappreciative hangers-on.
Posted by individual, Friday, 24 June 2011 6:40:21 PM
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@ individual:

Firstly, I didn't bring race into it. My first comment was in response to the explicitly racist comments that preceded it. Also, could you please refrain from attributing imagined motives to what I say.

I can assure you that I both work and protect my "acquisitions". Where we seem to differ is apparently the degree to which we perceive our precious acquisitions are under threat, and the actual source of the threat.

In my case, I sleep quite soundly without fear of imminent social collapse, knowing that I live in one of the safest and stablest countries on the planet, where we celebrate ideals like mutual tolerance, mateship and a fair go. I'm sometimes mildly disturbed by the more extreme expressions of racial, sexual, cultural and religious bigotry that are part of our tradition of discourse, but hey, it's all part of the mix.

I won't engage in silly speculation about your own motives, work ethic etc, but it must be hard being fearful and angry all the time.
Posted by morganzola, Friday, 24 June 2011 10:21:19 PM
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Hi LEGO

I read the paper you referred to, interesting stuff – here are some excerpts below which I found particularly useful:

“Recent twin studies show persuasive evidence that both genetic and environmental factors contribute to antisocial behaviour. However the genetic evidence indicates that there is no single gene, or even a small number of genes, that predict an increased risk of antisocial behaviour. Where there have been some effects the increase in risk associated with antisocial behaviour is modest.”

It warns that heavy reliance on theories of genetic links to criminality “raise fears of a return to the type of state-sponsored intervention in reproduction, pre-emptive incarceration or medication, and scientifically sanctioned racism that earlier enthusiasms for biological explanations of crime have prompted.”

“The majority of genetic research on antisocial behaviours has been conducted on Caucasian populations, and does not aim to identify race-specific susceptibility alleles for antisocial behaviour. The polygenic nature of antisocial behaviour also means that even if a susceptibility allele is found at a high frequency in a particular ethnic group, it is likely that a different susceptibility allele will be found at a similarly high frequency in another ethnic group.”

So it seems environmental factors, rather than race, have an important part to play. If we accept your assertion that particular second-generation ethnic groups in Australia are over-represented among criminals, perhaps we should take some time to evaluate the Australian environment they have grown up in – no doubt marginalization and discrimination have largely featured.

I’m sure you will just interpret this evaluation as more “white man bashing” – haven’t we just had such a rough deal?

“No one is born hating another person because of the colour of his skin, or his background, or his religion. People must learn to hate, and if they can learn to hate, they can be taught to love, for love comes more naturally to the human heart than its opposite.”

I hope you too will learn to love – not just those who are familiar and look like you, but also those who need it most.
Posted by ausinbrazil, Saturday, 25 June 2011 3:28:11 AM
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The paper points out that both genetic and environmental factors contribute to criminal behaviour. That in itself is significant. Your first quote pointed out that no single gene, or group of genes can PREDICT the onset of criminal behaviour, and where this has been attempted the effects have been found to be modest. That view is reinforced on page 5 where the researchers concluded that ……

“……it is highly unlikely that single genes will be found that very substantially increase the risk of engaging in criminal behaviour. Instead, it is far more likely that a large number of genetic variants will be identified....

In other words, no single gene, or any small group of genes are significant, it is much more likely that a large number of genetic variants are responsible.

I laughed myself silly when you posted up that quote about the research only being applicable to the Caucasian" race. People like yourself go into all sorts of verbal gymnastics to claim that all races are equal, yet you were silly enough to submit as evidence, that the scientists themselves are warning that genetic "alleles" applicable to one race providing a causal link between genetics and criminality, may caused by different "alleles" in another race.

But you could not see that, could you? You are so fixated upon your “all men are equal" ideology that you are (as Orwell pointed out in his book “1984”) unable to grasp the contradictions in your own slogans.

I agree that environmental factors are far more important than genetics in determining susceptibility to criminal behaviour. That means that if a person has had good parents who reinforce societal expectations, live in a culture where adherence to social norms is reinforced, even a person with a genetic predisposition to criminal behaviour may not do so. But where the same person has bad parents, who’s cultural values are diametrically opposed to the community, and where popular culture reinforces the message that criminal behaviour is cool, then that person is far more prone to engage in criminal acts than a person with better genetics.
Posted by LEGO, Saturday, 25 June 2011 6:35:32 AM
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Babies happily play together, without a concern or even noticing skin colour. Until older people, people who decide who to like and who to hate based on appearance, influence our children.

I have blond hair and blue eyes, my mother had olive skin, blue-black hair and dark brown eyes - courtesy of my Jewish greatgrandmother - Middle Eastern blood - quelle horreur!

I suppose I should go back where I came from (country Victoria).
Posted by Ammonite, Saturday, 25 June 2011 7:51:44 AM
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WHAT DOES PROJECT BANTU DO? PART ONE.

I am writing in response to readers' requests for a more thorough description of what Project Bantu does. I am by no means an expert on Capoeira Angola. However I have seen Project Bantu's classes in the course of my own work as a research assistant and can describe what I witnessed over the couple of months I spent observing weekly classes.

Project Bantu teaches an Afro-Brasilian tradition called Capoeira Angola. The Capoeira Angola I saw (and I only saw classes for very new beginners) is conceptualised as a game and consists of: 1) music, and 2) physical play, involving elements of dance and martial arts.

1) The music
Project Bantu teaches students the traditional Afro-Brasilian music mentioned at the beginning of the article. Students are directed in playing percussion instruments such as those we would recognise as the tambourine, agogo and guiro (although they of course have names for them in Brazilian). Over the top of the rhythms they play on these instruments, the students are directed in singing call-and-response type songs. This music serves as the accompaniment for the physical part of the game, which I will now do my best to describe.

2) Physical play, involving elements of dance and martial arts
Students learn a series of choreographed movements that imitate martial art movements. It could be compared to the stylised 'dances' that form the Japanese kata. These are learnt, at first, by individuals using chairs as props/mock opponents. When the choreography has been mastered, students practice these movements in pairs. Like the paired kata, at different times throughout the choreography each person gets a turn at role-playing both a defender and an aggressor. At no time during the choreography is any impact to be made; it is not sparring in any way. Rather the movements are intended to be impressively within reach of impact, in this way demonstrating the restraint mentioned in the article.
Posted by samgieck, Monday, 27 June 2011 9:47:06 AM
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WHAT DOES PROJECT BANTU DO? PART TWO.

3) The game

Both of the elements described, together, make up the game. The instrumentalists and singers sit in a circle (a hoda) and play their music. As mentioned in the article, the music communicates with the ‘players’ (those performing the choreography), driving the choreography in both speed and energy. The players themselves perform in the middle of the circle. At the end of their turn, they return to the circle and become part of the singing and music-playing hoda, from which the next pair of players come. This continues until everybody in the hoda has had a turn at playing the game.

Again, I would like to stress that what I saw - and what the description above is based on - was beginner classes adapted for Western learners. I am not sure whether this would be recognised as the ‘authentic’ Capoeira Angola by experts, whatever ‘authentic’ means.
Posted by samgieck, Monday, 27 June 2011 9:48:34 AM
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WHAT DOES PROJECT BANTU DO? PART THREE.

I hope this has been helpful for those of you who expressed an interest in the details about what Project Bantu does. I can assure you it’s not a sham (although I am not sure I understood what the accusation was in that comment). To put in my two cents worth, Project Bantu has been effective in further developing in some if its participants - a significant number of whom are refugees - characteristics such as discipline and respect. In practice this translates to things like learning to be punctual and how to communicate with ‘Others’. In my experience (which I am not in any way claiming is complete or authoritative), the refugees I have come across who have problems with things like punctuality and cross-cultural communication come from years (and lifetimes) of living in situations where these customs were not necessary. For example most of the students have grown up in refugee camps where they have not had the fortunate opportunity to go to school. Their parents, in refugee camps, were not able to work. In this way, there was no structure or timetable they had to stick to; it is not that they don’t care about attending classes and are mandated to participate by the law (as suggested by the first poster); they are simply not used to it. Even before fleeing as a refugee, a number of these people come from task-oriented rather than time-oriented work situations (such as self-sufficient agriculture). I am by no means suggesting that this excuses anybody from, for example, being failing to be punctual. I am just saying that these things need to be learnt and a lot of people have not had the opportunities that are a natural part of everyday life in Australia. We need to give them time to learn it, and frameworks for them to do so. From what I saw, Project Bantu is one of those frameworks.
Posted by samgieck, Monday, 27 June 2011 9:49:11 AM
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