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The Forum > Article Comments > Tunisia… Egypt… Libya… Let's look closer to home > Comments

Tunisia… Egypt… Libya… Let's look closer to home : Comments

By Daniel Scoullar, published 30/3/2011

We have state sponsored violence and political exclusion much closer to home than one might realise.

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Proud to be indonesian,

You say LOL, we don't care whaat you think."

LOL, not only do we not care, we don't believe much of anything Indonesian leaders have to say either. Most Australians don't, And your attempting to alienate the only group who might. In general Indonesia is seen as a poverty stricken, corrupt state, ruled by its military. This from the Jakarta Post. http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/03/31/quo-vadis-graft-eradication.html

Don't forget, Australia pushed Indonesia out of East Timor after they made a mess of their attempts to supress the popuation by violence and intimidation. So much for Indonesian military and diplomatic muscle. What a Joke. A big Fish? More like an overgrown guppy.

GDP by purchasing power is a great measure if you want to know how much local produce you can buy. Otherwise GDP by currency exchange rate is the appropriate measure.
Posted by PaulL, Thursday, 31 March 2011 7:09:19 PM
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@PaulL:

"LOL, not only do we not care, we don't believe much of anything Indonesian leaders have to say either."

LOL is this an infantile attempt at "retaliation"? In your opinion, why should Indonesians care about what you care/not care, or what you believe/not believe? Answer this question.

"In general Indonesia is seen as a poverty stricken, corrupt state, ruled by its military."

LOL, tell that to the Sydney/Melbourne real estate managers, Oz universities, and investors who regularly made sales pitches to Jakarta and other major Indonesian cities.

"Don't forget, Australia pushed Indonesia out of East Timor"

LOL, is this another of your masturbatory fantasy? East Timor was basically expelled from Indonesia by President Habibie, who suddenly ordered a referendum on independence in January 1999. To secure the area from East Timorese appetite for arson (which the East Timorese showed again in 2006 when they burned down 60% of Dili despite presence of Australian soldiers), Indonesia INVITED Australian soldiers to help in the transition process.

In fact, Australian commander General Peter Cosgrove praised Indonesian military since between September-November 1999, Oz and Indonesian soldiers actually patrolled TOGETHER to ensure security in ET. As we can see in 2006, Oz soldiers have been magnificently INCOMPETENT in preventing Timorese mob from burning down 60% of their own capital city Dili (including dozens of Oz businesses) LOL.
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Thursday, 31 March 2011 9:02:45 PM
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Dear "Proud to be Indonesian",
No-one doubts Indonesia is a great nation, with a lot of great people, and, though our cultures are quite different, Oz naturally respects Indonesia's sovereignty and shares various important alliances. Everyone ought also to be able to recognise how history has acted to make the Indonesian people tough, capable, resilient and proud. But, like every other nation on this planet, Indonesia is not perfect.
Habibe was a visionary and, like Bhota in South Africa and Gorbachev in the former USSR, Habibe saw the light regarding East Timor - a poor country of little promise. But, West Papua is a different story, for it has extensive resources as yet untapped by the rather backward ethnic residents - easy pickings for powerful, dominating Indonesia. Pure power-grab, as with ET, and the attempt at North Borneo (Sabah) - which chose to join Malaysia instead. Forget the chest beating, we know the truth because we are a free society.
As for our peace-keepers in ET - they were really there to protect the locals from the occasionally over-zealous Indo Military and the rebels they supported in the lead-up to the referendum.
No-one blames you for being upset about the prospect of losing a bit of territory, but, like with Tunisia, Libya etc, one day oppressed people will rebel, and visionary leaders will then make concessions, or will fall. And, if abuses are recognised by the international community, it may choose to act in retaliation - like in Bosnia?
Cool heads should prevail, and maybe one day universal peace will afford all a better life and infinite prospects.
Posted by Saltpetre, Friday, 1 April 2011 1:09:26 AM
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Proud to be Indonesian,

Does your mum know you have the computer?

In response to my charge of Indonesia as a poverty stricken country, rife with corruption and ruled by the military ...

You say “tell that to the Sydney/Melbourne real estate managers, Oz universities, and investors who regularly made sales pitches to Jakarta and other major Indonesian cities.”

Yes. Lets not worry about what the Jakarta Post had to say, when we have such sterling sources as ... who? ... Syndey/Melboune real estate agents? And they said what ..? Anything which would make them money I suspect.

The Yudoyono gov’t, led by exGeneral Yudoyono is now seeking to peel back the laws against corruption.

“...the proposed amendment to the 2001 Anticorruption Law, (which) scraps the death penalty and reduces the minimum sentence to only one year. Another revision says that those convicted of embezzling less than Rp 25 million (US$28,000) in state funds can escape prosecution if they simply return the money. Jakarta Post.

WHAT? ....If you get caught and return the money, its OK. Why wouldn't you try your luck if you were a corrupt local official?

In fact, the anticorruption watchdog, the KPK, has had FIVE of its own members investigated over corruption.

And how much was it you said you get for 5 dollars? Breakfast, lunch and dinner. That’s great. Except the average middle class Indonesian has only 2 dollars to spend a day. On EVERYTHING.

“ Mohammad Ikhsan, a senior economist at the University of Indonesia, said in Jakarta on Wednesday that although the middle class had grown considerably, the majority of its members spent only about US$2.00 a day on average.” http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2011/03/31/larger-middle-class-does-little-economy.html

As for East Timor, you are either completely ignorant (my best guess) or you are mentally ill. Habbibie only came to office after his corrupt predecessor, the billionaire dictator General Suharto, had been overthrown in a revolution. There you go, you were right, I actually know one of Indonesia’s billionaires. Let me just count .. 1) Corruption, ... 2) military rule, ... 3)poverty. what was that charge again? ....

TBC
Posted by PaulL, Friday, 1 April 2011 9:15:55 AM
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CONT'

Suharto, in full Presidente-For-Life style, had previously invaded and annexed East Timor in 1975 killing 5 Australian journalists in the process. Habbibie, announced the referendum, in conjunction with the UN, and Portugal, partly as a result of strong Australian pressure. He, along with many others in Indonesia wrongly thought that there was support for integration with Indonesia. This can be directly attributed to the Indonesian Army, (many of whose officers had trained at Australian military colleges) who thought that their military command of the brutal Timorese militia groups was sufficient to guarantee a pro integration vote. It wasn’t.

When a UN delegation arrived in Jakarta on 8 September, they were told by Indonesian President Habibie that reports of bloodshed in East Timor were "fantasies" and "lies". General Wiranto of the Indonesian military insisted that his soldiers had the situation under control, and later expressed his emotion for East Timor by singing the 1975 hit song "Feelings" at an event for military wives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_occupation_of_East_Timor#1999_referendum

I'd suggest you watch this, the 'action' starts around the 5:45minute mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NYdGad-0bs

On 12 September President Habibie agreed to withdraw Indonesian soldiers and to allow an Australian-led international peacekeeping force to enter East Timor. The International Force for East Timor, or INTERFET, entered Dili on 20 September and by 31 October the last Indonesian troops had left East Timor.

Thats four days between ‘ A pack of lies’ and ‘ welcome in’. But I’m sure you can continue your masturbatory fantasy of Indonesia’s power, greatness and influence.
Posted by PaulL, Friday, 1 April 2011 9:23:21 AM
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@Saltpetre:

"But, West Papua is a different story, for it has extensive resources as yet untapped by the rather backward ethnic residents - easy pickings for powerful, dominating Indonesia."

Wrong. West Papua became part of Indonesia since it was part of the former Dutch East Indies, later confirmed by UN General Assembly Resolution.

"one day oppressed people will rebel, and visionary leaders will then make concessions, or will fall. And, if abuses are recognised by the international community, it may choose to act in retaliation - like in Bosnia?"

LOL, unfortunately Papua is not "oppressed", some backward people there simply has too much racism and ethnic-chauvinism against anyone whose physical features is slightly different than themselves. No wonder, since they couldn't even get along with tribe from neighboring village without engaging in bloody tribal wars every year.

WRT to foreign intervention, LOL I don't think so. Even Obama went out of his way to praise unity of Indonesia from Sabang to Merauke LOL.

@paulL:

"Anything which would make them money I suspect."

LOL, of course since there are indeed too many people with excess cash in Indonesia.

"Except the average middle class Indonesian has only 2 dollars to spend a day. On EVERYTHING."

Wrong. LOL, read your article again. It says that the middle class formed 57% of the population (130 million people), further divided into:

-38.5% spends USD4 per day (50 million people)
-60.2% spends USD4-USD10 per day (78 million people)
-1.3% spends more than USD10 per day (2 million people)

If one can live well on less than USD5 per day, why should one spend more than that? LOL

No wonder Indonesia is considered as middle income country by World Bank. As of 2010, 36% of the population has annual disposable income of USD5,000-15,000.
http://web.worldbank.org/WBSITE/EXTERNAL/COUNTRIES/EASTASIAPACIFICEXT/INDONESIAEXTN/0,,contentMDK:22851160~menuPK:50003484~pagePK:2865066~piPK:2865079~theSitePK:226309,00.html
http://cachef.ft.com/cms/s/0/3a7c963a-f335-11df-a4fa-00144feab49a.html#axzz1IEL3Jyq3
Posted by Proud to be Indonesian, Friday, 1 April 2011 11:24:56 AM
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