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The Forum > Article Comments > Morality, politics and asylum-seekers > Comments

Morality, politics and asylum-seekers : Comments

By Scott MacInnes, published 21/2/2011

Could these five proposals ethically solve our refugee problem?

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"That's cool, King Hazza, do you want to apply the same discriminatory processes to Australian criminals, etc"
As they are the product of our own society's ills, they are our responsibility to deal with properly, for all of us as citizens with a say in this country's management.
My policy is that whatever Australians hold sovereignty over, we are responsible for, down to every citizen. Thus, our own vulnerable, the product of our folly, must be cared for.
Though I feel that taking refugees is the right thing to do but beyond that, we are not obligated to house also the brain-damaged nutters from overseas conflicts beyond our control (and yes, Afghanistan would have played out the same way even if we rightfully boycotted- our only input is to withdraw and compensate all the damage we've done).

"What criterea/who" Being a democracy, I would let the people and elected representatives to put up ideas to be voted on. After all, they alone know what they are willing to sacrifice and know what "our values" actually are, instead of some tosser who wants to pat himself on the back over making others do it for him.

"You know what I'm sick of, Hasbeen? etc"
I'm personally sick of idiots like you trying to pretend the debate is about people being 'generous to the less fortunate' or not as a whole, when my points, even before, clearly stated otherwise.
I'm happy to be generous to the less fortunate- and even more so to reward generous people with more generosity. I refuse however to be exploited by somebody who only takes from others.

As soon as you open your house to whoever asks- regardless who they are- even Runner if he so chooses, to use as their own and implement their own house rules that you must accomodate, you can lecture me about my heartless lack of compassion towards other heartless, compassion-less people.

A moderate secularist community deserves the right to its own security from people who care less but want what they got anyway.
Go figure.
Posted by King Hazza, Monday, 21 February 2011 12:05:44 PM
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As an Aussie Citizen I should have some rights too .

For example I should be able to have the same rights that the boat people do , should I decide to opt out of Aus because I feel threatened and I do feel threatened now by Muslim Fundamentalist behaviour exposed every day by our Media so my options should be; finance to migrate to the United States then Maintenance to establish permanent accommodation in the United States (I have six kids and own my own home) then as a displaced person from my own Country free Air Passage back to Aus. Visitation Rights every few years or whenever close relatives pass on .
I would I assume be entitled to the same payments the Muslims receive ie; 2.3x the Boat people get that Homeless Oz. people don't , I could go on and on but I won't because everyone knows about the farcical fiscal madness applied to Boat people .
Posted by Garum Masala, Monday, 21 February 2011 1:38:43 PM
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Briar Rose,

Most refugee crises and examples of hellish living conditions around the world can be well explained by too many people and not enough resources, as well as by bad environmental management, bad governance, often supported by voters who want preferential treatment for their own ethnic group or religious sect, and people hanging on like grim death to cultural patterns that have become dysfunctional. No capitalists or evil white men are required.

After the earthquake in Haiti, there were a number of articles on OLO banging on about Haiti's tragic history of slavery and exploitation by Western capitalism. None of them mentioned that there are well-run middle income countries in the Caribbean where the people also have to live in a world with rapacious multinationals and are also descended from black slaves. (For that matter, if you could go back far enough in the family tree of anyone at all, you would find slaves - and slaveowners.) Barbados, for example, has about the same GNP per capita as Portugal or Poland and is ranked by the UN as a very high human development country.

In Rwanda, the population tripled between 1960 and 1990. The former agriculture minister, James Gasana, wrote an article on the genocide assigning primary (but not exclusive) responsibility to the population growth. It includes a table showing the correlation between massacres and calories per person in different districts in his country:

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/524

Gasana points out that there were no massacres in districts with more than 1500 calories per person per day.

Afghanistan did get invaded, but their government provoked it by harbouring the terrorists who blew up the World Trade Center in New York and killed around 3,000 people, an act of war in anyone's book.

Massacres and dispossessions have been going on since before there were modern humans. There are many examples in Prof. Lawrence Keeley's book, "War Before Civilization". Many of us reject the idea that poor people lack agency, so we must be responsible whenever bad things happen.
Posted by Divergence, Monday, 21 February 2011 3:01:06 PM
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King Hazza's example of the private house is actually quite good. Briar Rose no doubt feels that her house is hers because her parents left it to her or because she worked for it, and would be most indignant if she were required to share it with strangers.

The same is true of our collective property. Australia is not some sort of lucky dip to which existing citizens or permanent residents have no special claim. It is a relatively decent place to live because our ancestors and predecessors worked to build it and because we have been working to keep it that way. It is our taxes that have been paying for the roads, schools, hospitals, sewer systems, libraries, etc., etc. Young men have been drafted or volunteered to serve in wartime, and their relatives had to see them go, knowing that they might come back with pieces missing or not come back at all. I would say that they have earned the right not to have Briar Rose and her friends dilute their share of a healthy environment and of infrastructure, public services, and amenities.

Ross Gittins has pointed out that just such dilution, in the form of very high immigration rates, is responsible for the deterioration many of us are experiencing in infrastructure, public services, housing costs, etc., even if the better paid migrants will eventually pay their share:

http://www.smh.com.au/business/beware-gurus-selling-high-migration-20101219-19201.html

Infrastructure Australia estimates that there is already a $700 billion dollar backlog. Paying this off over 10 years would amount to $37,000 a year for every man, woman, and child in Australia.

Like King Hazza, I am not opposed to taking refugees, up to say, 20,000 a year, but we have also obligations to our children and other fellow citizens, and to our bit of the environment, not just to meet the humanitarian needs of foreigners. Scott McInnes is right about the (impossible) open-ended nature of our obligations under the 1951 Refugee Convention.
Posted by Divergence, Monday, 21 February 2011 3:48:51 PM
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Australia is also a decent place to live because of the contributions to the economy and the culture made by refugees.

How very comforting for you to believe that the primary cause of genocide is less than 1500 calories a day.

Can you explain the Holocaust in terms of the SS daily calorie intake? Rhetorical question only.

I would have thought that boat arrivals have a considerable amount of agency, probably a lot more than is average. That's one of the reasons they'd make excellent citizens.

We're all strangers in somebody's book.
Posted by briar rose, Monday, 21 February 2011 9:17:49 PM
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No No No

It's all too complex.

Let's just set up an office outside our embassy in Jakata with a big sign over it.

'Asylum seekers, guaranteed visa in one year, identification a must, only AUS$5000.00.'

Bingo! end of the dangerous leaking boats and people smugglers.

Leave or increase our quota for genuine refugees and just take anyone else prepared to pay.

Then everybody gets a fair go, including the Aussie who is funding the current fiasco.
Posted by keith, Thursday, 24 February 2011 10:58:43 AM
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