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The Forum > Article Comments > Women who cry wolf > Comments

Women who cry wolf : Comments

By Elizabeth Lakey, published 10/2/2011

Women are not always the victim, and it is a perversion of feminism to portray them as such.

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People cry wolf !

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No further comment.

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Posted by Banjo Paterson, Thursday, 10 February 2011 6:24:01 AM
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"The academic backlash was profound."

Yeah....right.. probably those same academics who would applaud the 'enlightened' wisdom of Dr Peter Singer of Melbourne Uni's 'bioethics' dept... and his 'enlightened' view that human/animal sexual encounters are well... read it for yourself.

http://www.utilitarian.net/singer/by/2001----.htm

The agenda is very clear... Funnell, and Cannold are blind to the reality of how some women act.

-Drunk
-Skimpy and suggestive clothes
-Alone
-Physically weaker than males.
-Fully aware that predatory males who lurk in wait for opportunity do exist.

Of course it's not 'their' fault they are raped. Who would think that?
Afterall.. Funnell and Cannold have told us...right?

But turn it around a bit.

-Sober
-modest clothing
-with a crowd
-strength doesn't matter.

Well.. given that they KNOW such dangers exist...well.. call it as you see it... no skin off my nose, but it might be a bit off whichever female follows course of action which has a greater likelihood of resulting in harm.

Forget about "who's fault" and think more about 'probability'.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:21:33 AM
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Oh.. this is too much.. from Nina Funnybones

"No men, including footballers, are entitled to sex with drunk women."

err..sorry.. yes they are..if they ask for permission and she says "Sure honey..let's go for it"

Drunk or sober..if she agrees..she agrees. (I'm referring to the legal situation here)

If HE is drunk and SHE takes advantage.... is SHE entitled? If he says "Sure..go for it babe"...me thinks 'yes'.

Of course.. we could ALL follow the Scriptures which say:

13 You, my brothers and sisters, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the flesh[a]; rather, serve one another humbly in love. 14 For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”[b] 15 If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

and

6 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.

and

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

OUTCOME.... no rapes...no drunkeness...no skimpy slutty clothes (for both male and female)

But what would I know...I'm just a loony right wing Bible thumping dingbat :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:27:06 AM
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Playing the victim card is no exclusively women in this modern age.

The 'woe is me' crowd is represented in men and women - we've all encountered them at some stage - men and women who should just get on with their lives instead of looking for someone to blame.

However, I cannot agree that a drunk person is in a state to agree to have sex. Why is it we can see plain as day that a drunk person cannot drive (for good reason) but it is still okay to take advantage of a drunk for the purpose of sex.

Al
You surprise me. Why is it open slather if someone is drunk? Do we discard our morals and values just because the person is in a drunken state. That goes for both men and women.

As for crying wolf - in terms of false accusations, of course that is a no brainer. Those sorts of accusations are in the same contemptible category as the act of a rapist.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:55:37 AM
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Your self description is very impressive. Women today are not worthy of sex. They are morally incompetent. No wonder they are not wives any more. I would not trust the verbal authority of a sexual act, i would need authority in writing. I suppose you could take it that i don,t have much respect for todays women. They lost their momentum some time back.
Posted by a597, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:59:29 AM
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"I'm just a loony right wing Bible thumping dingbat"

Well at least there was something in that I could agree with David ;)

You echo the sentiments that cause much of the anti-male villification that Elizabeth is talking about. Not that far off Hilaili's uncovered meat approach really.

The thing is David, women wearing modest clothes in what they thought was a safe location can get raped. Elderly women in their homes can get raped. I'd agree that there are times when choices become a "pick me" sign to some regardless of how the choices are intended. People often do contribute to their own problems but those who seek to misuse that to push their own hangup's are part of the problem, not a solution.

Elizabth, thanks for the article. The ugly point is where we defend at the expense of others those we have a common characteristic with almost regardless of what's actually happened. That characteristic can be gender, race, faith, nationality or some other grouping we identify with.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 10 February 2011 8:12:56 AM
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RObert you put it superbly as usual. Women wearing burkas have been raped, Christian nuns have been raped and I don't think it had anything to do with dress sense. It is worrying when people who profess a Christian faith think style of dress is relevant in rape cases. Uncovered meat indeed. Are men wearing stubbies and tank tops asking for it?

Judgements are often made enmasse and based on generalisations and prejudices, regardless of the individual circumstances and the nature of the people involved.

I have been guilty of it myself in regard to footballers but have reassessed those prejudices (thanks Cornflower) which are largely media driven. The lack of morality in a few footballers does not excuse the fact that footballers tend to be judged as a group rather than individuals. Justice has to be blinkered to those external pressures and stick with the facts as they present themselves.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 10 February 2011 8:22:35 AM
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The Department of Public Prosecutions (DPP) are the problem as usual. This is a closed shop organisation, brimming with hidden agendas, itching for high profile events to propel careers by “all means and foul”.

Police are powerless against its might, and often wrongly accused as the purveyors of such nonsense.
Posted by diver dan, Thursday, 10 February 2011 8:40:47 AM
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a597 maybe it's not the women of today that are the problem, it's the type of women that some men prefer to associate with.

Just as I get very tired of most men being blamed for the consequences of some women's preference for "bad boys" it's a annoying for most women to be blamed for the actions of a some women.

All in all a very unpleasant post.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:08:54 AM
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some of these comments and parts of the article are ridiculous and reinforce stereotypes of men and women. It is never ok, regardless of what a woman is wearing (dark age comments), to assault a woman or to have sex without her consent. For many men the idea of this is repulsive. Unfortunately while some of the attitudes represented here prevail women will continue to be assaulted more often.

The article says that Leslie Cannold 'eagerly told us about her own experiences'. This is just a disgusting comment. Any women who has been raped is not eager to make that public and she (or he) should be supported in speaking out about it. Too many assaults are hidden and this article reinforces that women should not speak.

There are always issues around false accusations that are made public and how these should be handled. The reality is that people lie about all sorts of things and we have courts to tests these claims. But there is a much larger problem in that women are not coming forward to report most violent sexual crimes and articles like this one and the comments following, unfortunately, will provide further deterrence.

Let's encourage women and men who are raped or assaulted to speak up but let's also make sure the claims are tested fairly and without a trial by media.
Posted by Macky, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:16:44 AM
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Elizabeth Lakey, I really look forward to your PHD and hopefully you will have a high-profile and controversial career ahead of you.

There is so much hypocrisy and simple feminist hatred maskerading as 'research' which is well funded and published each year. Yet, somewhere there are academics, journalists and media commentators who will peer-review and publish the other side... and certainly you will receive an adoring audience of children who lost their dads to the "Feminist Court" (Family Court) and others who respect truth and ntegrety over zealotry.

Please keep working in this field. Please get published. Please get tenure. Please keep going.

Men are not allowed to even suggest what you can write as a woman... and even you are surely receiving tremendous flak... Be strong, respect the truth, realise that thousands of lives are lost through suicide and tens of thousands of children's futures are destroyed each year because of the idealogy of vengance that is modern feminism.

Please save lives and protect children by telling the truth.

PartTimeParent@pobox.com
Posted by partTimeParent, Thursday, 10 February 2011 10:07:21 AM
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Macky, your words tell of a critical lack of information. Take the case of a close friend of mine.

He was accused of rape, arrested and given bail. There were no witnesses, there was no evidence, nothing but her word. One night a couple of months later she was out drinking with her mates when while drunk she let slip how she had the power to get any man into trouble. All she had to do was go to the cop shop and say that that guy had raped her a few weeks before. There would be no evidence left over - it would just be her word against his. Of course the cops would never believe him, it was the perfect plan. And the best part was that she had already done it to one guy. Under an extreme attack of conscience her friend fronted the cops and told them everything.

Now for the lack of information I talked of, you say that the courts will fairly handle cases weeding out the malicious from the genuine. In which court will this occur? My friend was being instructed by everyone that he should plead guilty because it may help to lessen his sentence. His own lawyer was pleading with him to do it, the court would never side with him. If her friend hadn't told the story he would have been sent to jail for a crime he didn't commit - why? Because he is a man! And a man is always guilty in these cases! The media response to the story speaks of this truth.

The story was stating, quite correctly I might add, that an accusation is not proof. When Leslie Canold 'eagerly' told of her experiences she had already convicted them in her own mind and was playing executioner. If they are innocent what does her story have to do with it, other than attempting to cast doubt, if they are guilty how does her story being plastered across the news help the victim or others, both victims and victims of false accusations? The answer it doesn't!
Posted by Arthur N, Thursday, 10 February 2011 10:26:17 AM
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So feminism is a destructive ideology.
How then do you account for the contents of these truth-telling sites?

http://www.womankind.org.uk/statistics.html

http://www.feminist.com/antiviolence/facts.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape
Posted by Ho Hum, Thursday, 10 February 2011 10:55:39 AM
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As clarification, the sentence "no man is entitled to have sex with a drunk woman" should have read "no man is entitled to have sex with a drunk (or sober) woman". The point is that no one is ever ENTITLED to sex. it is not something somebody ever "owes" another person (including in marriage- though I'd be interested to hear the authors view on this given that in rape in marriage is not thought to exist, men are ENTITLED to sex with their wives, and they are entitled to "discipline" them if they say no.)
Posted by ninaf, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:44:42 AM
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Arthur you sight a lack of critical information in my comments and you give one example that doesn't seem to be entirely true. Most cases of sexual assualt that are reported do not result in convictions because of the difficulty in providing evidence and various other issues, mostly relating to myths about women and distrust of women.

It is true that people accuse each other of crimes they don't commit but the court system does not just find men guilty without evidence. This is just more myth-making. Your friend should have found another lawyer if this is what he was being told. Most women don't want to report sexual assault because of the difficulty in getting a conviction and the process is so difficult to go through
Posted by Macky, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:52:34 AM
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The problem here is the pressure on people not to be seen to be blaming the victim, which is a massive influence on how rape is discussed in our society.

One of the problems with this taboo is that it means that the only safe way to portray rape in our society, has been to make her look as victim-like as humanly possible, by showing her dramatically screaming and portraying him as a nutter. This stereotype has recently been identified as a problem, because people don't consider the possibility that other events could potentially be rape and are-not careful enough about questions of consent.

In addition, once an event is labelled rape, it becomes quite hard to question that judgement. Hence a number of people shoot their mouths off after every allegation, without fully considering the strength of the evidence. Even now, when it is quite clear that many of the recent allegations against footballers have been malicious, some people cannot accept that they were-not rape (although many footballers are still sleazy tossers).

Another problem is that rape gets discussed in a way that robs her of all agency or ability to control what is happening to her. Recent research suggests that in most (hetrosexual) rape, she was happy to have a bit of a pash and stuff but either didn't decide or didn't communicate what the "and stuff" included and excluded. In those cases, all she needs to do is to make a decision and tell him about it. It seems fairly reasonable to expect that of her and equally reasonable to be a little critical of women who cannot do this. Of course the women that Robert discussed who get raped in quite different circumstances will be judged quite differently. Expecting women not to get drunk of wear tight clothing to protect themselves against rape are unreasonable expectations, although there may be other reasons to dislike both.

We are all judged. Get over it.
Posted by benk, Thursday, 10 February 2011 12:01:07 PM
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I had this sense of déjà vu reading Boaz' contribution to the debate.

>>Funnell, and Cannold are blind to the reality of how some women act.
-Drunk
-Skimpy and suggestive clothes
-Alone
-Physically weaker than males.
-Fully aware that predatory males who lurk in wait for opportunity do exist.
Of course it's not 'their' fault they are raped. Who would think that?<<

Ah yes, I remember...

"If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it ... whose fault is it, the cats' or the uncovered meat?"

Now, where on earth did I see that?
Posted by Pericles, Thursday, 10 February 2011 1:30:52 PM
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Women should be able to wear what they want, when they want, wherever they want. They should enjoy all the power that this 'freedom' brings over men with none of the reponsibility. That is called equality.
Posted by dane, Thursday, 10 February 2011 4:14:22 PM
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Nina

We used to think that rape was about power to men. It seems from your post that some women are perfectly capable of getting on a power trip.

Pelican

"However, I cannot agree that a drunk person is in a state to agree to have sex."

Good luck convincing many young women that they cannot decide whether or not to have sex after a dozen drinks but men can. Most young men won't listen to you either. You will only feed the idea that the rules are for suckers, which is part of the problem. The whole idea smacks of paternalism. It says something disturbing that a man and a woman can be equally drunk, she is seen as incapable of deciding to have sex, but he is expected to act as responsibly as a sober person.
Posted by benk, Thursday, 10 February 2011 4:24:40 PM
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elizabeth. I had an article published on a similar theme on this site, seven years ago: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2126

it's from personal experience.
Posted by Rose C, Thursday, 10 February 2011 6:17:16 PM
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Pelly....

//I don't think it had anything to do with dress sense.//

Let's change that to "I THINK it has to do with COMMON sense" aaah.. that has a better ring to it.

Perilous bit hook line and sinker.. now moving from 'bait' to..'switch' :)

Of course I sound like the 'dingbat' sheikh.. but here is how I see it.

Soldier in Iraq is told, 'don't go on the road through this village there are IED's everywhere'..and that knowitall/been there done that soldier ignores the warning..and of course is blown to kingdom come.

Who's fault ? HIS fault!

Woman is told "Sus.. if you wander around the cross late at night dressed like THAT... there are more rapists in this area than any other in Sydney"... Susan ignores the advice..and of course..she is RAPED.. who's fault ? HER fault!

Women are advised "Slutty clothes could contribute to a marginally sane man thinking it is an invitation to come get it".. she ignores it..and is raped. Who's fault? go figure.

DRUNK WOMEN....who say "yes" to a man asking for 'it' are guilty of their own misdeeds. There is no ENTITLEMENT for sex outside of permission.. get over yourselves.

Nina.. you should do some anti feminist deprogramming re-education.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 7:54:35 PM
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A couple of months ago a female teacher in WA was gaoled for having sex with two 'boys' aged 15 and 16.

If she was not their teacher then having sex with the 16 year old may have been within the law. Not so the 15 year old.

But she was their teacher and she should have been gaoled, and obviously she was.

But there is a twist in this story. She was drunk at the time: this was agreed by the prosecution and the defence. Yes, she was drunk.

Now, normally when a male has sex with a woman who has been drinking heavily, who is unable to provide informed consent, then he is liable for investigation and possibly being charged with aggravated sexual assault with a trial to follow.

So here we actually have a crime with three victimes, the two boys who were abused sexually by their drunken teacher, and a drunken teacher who was unable to provide informed consent to what the two young men (at 15 and 16 are these really children?) did with her body. Of course only the teacher was punished, not the two young men who took advantage of her drunken state.

Does anyone else think 'double standard' here?
Posted by Dougthebear, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:21:37 PM
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DRUNK WOMEN....who say "yes" to a man asking for 'it' are guilty of their own misdeeds. There is no ENTITLEMENT for sex outside of permission.. get over yourselves.

"Forgive this bloke God our Father for he knows NOT what he is talking about at all".
Posted by weareunique, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:24:37 PM
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weareunique wrote "There is no ENTITLEMENT for sex outside of permission.."

Permission is not the issue, informed consent is.
Posted by Dougthebear, Thursday, 10 February 2011 9:26:15 PM
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Al
A woman who wears slutting clothing (your terminology) may take a risk if other precautions are not followed (eg. not being alone at a trains station at night), but dress does not give permission for a man to rape based on the skewed idea that style of dress immediately absolves the criminal (the rapist) of his actions. I suspect even a woman clad from head to tie to satisfy your sense of female 'decency' might be at risk of being raped in a similar situation.

A person who leaves a bag on the table and it is stolen may have taken a risk, but they are not responsible for the criminal's act of theft. The theft is the crime, not the leaving the bag on the table. See the difference. A judge is not going to say "off you go mate, you are free, the bag was left unattended for a moment, you are not to blame, go and have a nice cup of tea with your gang mates". The bag 'leaver' is chastised and their sentence is suspended because it was the first time they were guilty of leaving property unattended...but don't do it again.

This is how silly this view is.

Can't really understand the perceptions of some of the comments on this forum. What ever happend to decency and taking responsibility for actions? It is much easier to blame the victim than acknowledge that some people do bad things.

This thread is more about false accusations, it is not about giving rapists a free pass on the basis of the fact the victim may have been drunk, showing a bit of cleavage or in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Posted by pelican, Thursday, 10 February 2011 10:28:13 PM
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Hi Pelly

you say:

"but dress does not give permission" I don't recall saying it does dear.

But 'dress' does send a message. A low cut dress and lots of leg sends pretty much ONE message. U can guess what that is.

Let me run it by you :)

1/ I dress very provocativly because I want to attract a man.
(this is how a bloke sees it)

2/ If I get lucky and find a suitable one.. he will also get lucky.

3/ If some toad comes along...I'll abuse him and tell him POQ or I'll call the cops. (who are not within cooeee of the location)

4/ "HE"... after 'receiving' the message is now very annoyed and his self esteem is wounded because she rejected him,..and he might resort to a violent attempt to restore his 'esteem' by bullying the chick.

But if it begins with a modestly conservatively dressed girl who is not showing off 80% of her pins and 60% of her boobs....It's unlikely that bloke will approach her..because she is not sending out the "I'm in season" message.

Golly .. you know how it works in nature for crying out loud. Baboon rear ends go RED when the female is available. Did Charles darwin teach you nothing ? :) After all..in the absense of the Creator and His standards.. we are just smart animals surviving in the "struggle of life" are we not?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Origin_of_Species

Of course.. I hold to special Creation of man..so such thinking is not part of my own world view.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:10:23 PM
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Doug the Bear - the quote/extract was from Algoreisrich not myself!

Why do you think I wrote "God our Father please forgive this man, for he knows not what he is talking about at all"!!
Posted by weareunique, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:19:52 PM
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Great article Elizabeth, you obviously have a much better idea of how the world actually works, than many of our posters. Unlike them you are obviously aware that there are many more young women running around trying to "score" footballers, than the other way around.

The footballers don't have to run around looking for what piles up on their door step. Young footballers are trained by in how to behave, by these young women.

I wonder if many of you know how important football is to many people. In many country towns those playing in the local team are pretty exalted.

By country town standards, I was a pretty good footballer at high school. Our seniors team was coached by the captain/coach of the district team, [the high school teams results were that important], so I & a couple of others were used to fill in a few times when the top players were missing.

What I saw going on on the team bus, coming back from away games did not sit too well with what my mother had taught me about how to treat a lady. What surprised me even more was just who the ladies were, as much as the behaviour.

My life would probably have been somewhat different, if I had not had those eye opening experiences. It certainly taught me some new ways to treat a "lady"
Posted by Hasbeen, Thursday, 10 February 2011 11:44:17 PM
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http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2011/02/09/of-mark-sanchez-and-the-pratfalls-of-teenaged-romance/

<Ultimately, there may well have been a predator in the case of the pro quarterback and his high school paramour.

The shocking part? The predator may well have been the teenage girl.
Posted by JamesH, Friday, 11 February 2011 5:50:53 AM
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Human sexual behaviour is something that our society continues to struggle with enormously.

It is a mine field, get it wrong and it can blow up in your face big time.

Even now in the day and age of socalled equal rights, many feminists are much more interested in persecuting men for the consequences of female behaviour.

There is a huge degree of denial about covert human behaviour that is used to signal the possibility of sexual encounters.

There is an old victorian/puritan idea that women were not responsible for their behaviour or really that interested in sex. Feminists would appear to still be stuck in the victorian era, with victorian/puritan ideas.

Therefore it is much easier to transfer such responsibility onto men.

Don't blame the victim, effectively stops any investigation of the behaviour of the victim and circumstances preceding the event.

Could you imagine the same rules applying to car accidents. Don't blame the victim in car accidents, so therefore the behaviour and circumstances leading up to the accident will never be investigated.

So the understanding of how and why car accidents happen would remain in the dark ages.

If both people are having sex whilst drunk, then are not both committing an offense.

The feminist blockade on examining human sexual behaviour surrounding alleged offences, means that we remain in the dark ages. Remaining in the dark ages serves such feminists well.
Posted by JamesH, Friday, 11 February 2011 6:19:14 AM
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What happened to the "switch" part, Boaz?

>>Perilous bit hook line and sinker.. now moving from 'bait' to..'switch' :) Of course I sound like the 'dingbat' sheikh.. but here is how I see it.<<

You then proceed to repeat your position:

>>Women are advised "Slutty clothes could contribute to a marginally sane man thinking it is an invitation to come get it".. she ignores it..and is raped. Who's fault? go figure.<<

Precisely the same thinking as your beloved uncovered-meat man.

But maybe I'm missing something. Could you explain the difference between your view and his? At the moment it is far too subtle for me.

Because it seems clear that you are firmly of the same view, as you reiterate for anyone who hasn't been listening...

>>But 'dress' does send a message. A low cut dress and lots of leg sends pretty much ONE message. U can guess what that is.<<

Ummmm... "I am uncovered meat"?

You two really do have more in common that you care to believe, Boaz.
Posted by Pericles, Friday, 11 February 2011 7:43:30 AM
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AGIR insults both women and men.

Sane men do not rape.

Scantily clad or inebriated people (male or female) do not 'deserve' to be violated.
Posted by J Parker, Friday, 11 February 2011 8:02:30 AM
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Al
You called me 'dear'. My mum used to do that when I was naughty.

Women dress to attract men yes, but not as a signal that anything goes. Dress code does not absolve the concept of permission. Both a man and a woman must be attracted to have sex where there is mutual consent. Otherwise you are not better than Hilali's uncovered 'meat' analogy - men taking no responsibility for their actions. How does your God view the rapist?

Charles Darwin also talked about evolution in terms of civilisation and higher order thinking. Once we got out of the trees we didn't have to hang onto those 'primitive' aspects quite so diligently.:)

All this guff about clothing is just more excuses and turning a blind eye to criminal actions perhaps in some skewed interpretation of mateship. No wonder the justice system has gone to pot. And I make no excuses for false accusers, they are equally as abhorrent as the apologists for rape.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 11 February 2011 8:05:39 AM
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It is a big jump from how women dress, to men committing illegal acts.

There are a huge number of steps/stages missing.
Posted by JamesH, Friday, 11 February 2011 8:52:12 AM
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It is ridiculous to suggest that any woman in hooker wear has lost the right to decide who to have sex with. However, no-one would be critical of a rape victim purely for wearing that type of clothing.
Posted by benk, Friday, 11 February 2011 11:31:58 AM
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Rose C, I've just read your piece from 2004.
My thanks to you for having the courage and integrity to write that. No associated comments listed now, where there at the time?

I didn't recall the article, and when I looked I'd started posting in January 2005. Thanks for the link.

The article seems to fit well with Elizabeth's article. For those frustrated by David's determination to cling to a simplistic and deeply flawed view of the issue perhaps a read of Rose's earlier article (http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=2126) for something with depth and integrity.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Friday, 11 February 2011 12:54:17 PM
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Yes it is very good isn't it r0bert. Fancy someone talking about consent in a balanced fashion and giving responsibility to men and women alike and avoiding stereotypes.

I especially like how she rejected feminist claims of misogyny and pack mentality of men and predator/victim stereotypes in regards to rape, in favour of more nuanced explanations to do with personal/individual maturity and general human abuse of power. Even, shock horror, the existence of the concept of female abuse of power and the concept of women using men for sex and men not enjoying this.

Her other article was quite good also...

http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3094

dealing with the notions of consent based on age and sexual orientation and gender.

Kind of a change from the lock up your daughters crowd here who give women the responsibility for male desire and feminism's 'men are misogynists/rapists/predators' stuff where there are no grey areas and men hold all the responsibility for sex (especially when alcohol is involved)
Posted by Houellebecq, Friday, 11 February 2011 1:33:28 PM
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In NSW the Police and Police Minister are going on lately about victims of 'statutory rape' being possibly charged as accessories to the crime. I would presume this is in the event of a 15 year old girl telling a 16 year old boy that she is 16 or older, and the two of them having sex. As she is 15 she is, under the law, incapable of giving informed consent, and the 16 year old is possibly guilty of a crime.

I say possibly because there are many twists and turns to the law.

However whilest a law may have been broken what law is that?

To my understanding the term 'rape' was removed from the NSW 'penal code' some years ago and replaced with terms such as 'sexual assault' and 'aggravated sexual assault' and 'sexual penetration of a minor'.

A page from the ANU makes this clear: http://law.anu.edu.au/criminet/trape.html

So, if there is no such crime in NSW as 'rape' what on earth are the police and the minister doing talking about 'statutory rape', which was never a crime in NSW, whilst 'carnal knowledge of a minor, was?

To me it sounds like they have been watching too many American television shows. (policy via L&O SVU anyone?)

Of course the NSW authorities have come out and said that no victim of statutory rape will be charged in NSW, which is just as well, as there is no such crime here.

On the other hand, what will they do if they find someone with photos of a naked 15 year old in a sexual context on their computer, and then find that it was a 15 year old who sent it?

Charge both, with with creation of child pornography and the other with possession? Seems only appropriate.

I have seen, and reported to the site owners on an art site, such activity, against that site's rules, so that it would be removed. Just don't go telling me that 14 and 15 year old girls don't post highly inappropriate photos of themselves on line.
Posted by Dougthebear, Friday, 11 February 2011 5:46:43 PM
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My life would probably have been somewhat different, if I had not had those eye opening experiences. It certainly taught me some new ways to treat a "lady" [Hasbeen]

A generalisation Hasbeen and indicative of the fact that many males do not comprehend that a teenager or young person's brain and development varies in maturity and sensibilities well up until they are 21, 22, 23 years of age. Secondly, alcohol plays a large part in the 'fact' that egotistical and/or males cast in the limelight are known to take full advantage of young girls [still growing up and vulnerable emotionally] once they have been supplied alcohol/grog.

Statistically a high percentage of rapes are committed during a young girl's first or second alcoholic drink, usually premeditated and supplied by the perpetrator[s].

The male psyche is entirely different in their way of thinking to the female psyche who are in their 'teens' growing and developing emotionally, particularly males congregating in groups to prop one another up or belonging to a football team.

Older and sober males know damn well that these girls are young in their minds and take full advantage of that fact as per the disgraceful acts set up/premeditated and carried out by older football players in Sydney 18 months ago. Every one of them should have been charged and sent to gaol.

Ladies? What age group are you referring to Hasbeen? There are plenty of girls taken advantage of that were and still are 'ladies'.
Posted by weareunique, Friday, 11 February 2011 10:31:48 PM
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Dougthebear - "In NSW the Police and Police Minister are going on lately about victims of 'statutory rape' being possibly charged as accessories to the crime. I would presume this is in the event of a 15 year old girl telling a 16 year old boy that she is 16 or older, and the two of them having sex. As she is 15 she is, under the law, incapable of giving informed consent, and the 16 year old is possibly guilty of a crime"

I suggest all females you should have their date of birth tattoo'd on their foreheard in about size 30 font, shortly after birth.
Posted by Roscop, Saturday, 12 February 2011 1:48:01 AM
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Houellebecq that was another great article. Looking back I'm trying to remember what I disagreed with at the time (I was around for that article and posted a comment).

Thanks for the reminder.

R0bert
Posted by R0bert, Saturday, 12 February 2011 11:28:20 AM
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Unique, perhaps you did not notice the mention that it was who the ladies were, as much as the behaviour that surprised me. These were not kids.

It was the "exuberance" of well respected wives & mothers from the more privileged end of town that was a real eye opener. They did not appear to think there could be any unpleasant consequences of their romp, despite the presence of a couple of wide eyed school boys.
Posted by Hasbeen, Saturday, 12 February 2011 2:56:45 PM
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Of course no mention of the porn industry that reduces humans to animals. Feminist want the right to be portrayed as sex objects and then scream when it happens. Rape is always wrong but so is stealing. Feed a kid hours of ice cream adverts and then expect him not to steal from an unattended counter and you are stupid. Its time parents taught their girls some decency if they want to be treated decently. To many loose woman of the 60's 70's and 80's are seeing their girls do in excess what they did in some sort of moderation. Repentance and a concern for your children should have you acknowledging that feminism is a failure. Ban pornography (perversion) and rape drops would drop fairly quickly. Teach young girls a little modesty and rape rates will drop a bit more.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 12 February 2011 3:15:22 PM
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Roscop, I something don't think that DOB tattoos are the answer and I expect that your comment was tongue in cheek anyway.

The other problem is that underage sex has been going on for as long as there has been an age of consent. My first wife, of 30 something years ago, told me how she and all her friends didn't worry about not being 'legal' even though they knew what they were doing at 14 and 15 was illegal. They then celebrated being legal at 16 by doing other stuff that they were not yet legal for, like drinking.

More recently, a friend had a daughter who was under-age, who had a similarly under-age boyfriend. My friend reminded them of the age of consent, and both responded that neither was aware of the concept, so that it seems that previously under-age sexually active children ignored the law, whereas most now are not even aware of the law.

Getting back to the girls posting sexual photos of themselves on line. The almost inevitable response to their being reported and having the photos removed is to describe the person who reported them, or who suggested that their photos are against the rules of the site, as a pervert. It is obvious that they think that all the guys who were encouraging them to put more up to be the ones on their side. The idea that someone putting limits on behaviour as showing care and concern is a completely alien one.
Posted by Dougthebear, Saturday, 12 February 2011 3:26:00 PM
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J Parker...where did I say women who dress sluttily DESERVE to be raped ?

Pelly... you 'have' been naughty :)...how? aaah..you also put words into my mouth which didn't come from it. You say I say.. Dress code=permission"...I didn't say that at all.

I said.. slutty clothing sends a message. The message was not "I am giving permission for you (whoever) to have sex with me"..the message was... "I'm hot to trot for the bloke I approve of"

I also said nothing about absolving any rapist from guilt. The Bible is quite candid about such things. If the woman is betrothed.. he gets executed. If she is not betrothed.. he is to marry her.
(the idea here being, that if it is known she has been damaged by the man, no one will want her..in those days)

Try to understand this from a tribal/theocratic perspective, not our modern values.

PS..I also called you 'dear' because you are dear to me here :) we are able to discuss and disagree about controversial topics with reason and patience.
Some others could learn a lot from you.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Saturday, 12 February 2011 7:58:49 PM
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ROSE C.. good grief... I just read your older article about your bad experience with those bastards.

//You wrote Since then, I’ve relived the incident over and over, trying to make sense of it.//

and later:

//Was it misogyny?//

To me, it all began with the whole values framework you moved in.
You are not Robina Crusoe in that of course.. 2 of my children have bruises from the same kind of environement.
I tell them the same thing I tell you. 'Values framework'.
My son just about destroyed himself, but came back from the brink.
(unfortunately he now plans to take over the world :)

The loser b/f you had is beyond belief... give me 2 minutes with him at a local gym eh? He beats up your rapist... but needs a good hiding himself.

The values framework which WORKS (for those who embrace it) is that which is connected to the ultimate value Giver. Would any of those things have happened if:

a) You moved in circles which celibrated purity, honesty and true love.
b) Regularly reinforced those values with others who shared them.

c) Provided a connection to God in Christ and true personal dignity and self worth and healing from many of the emotional troubles that can scar us for life.

Bad things still happen to Christians, but the chances and probability are far less... of that you can be sure.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Saturday, 12 February 2011 8:18:53 PM
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AGIR

What is wrong with Rose's ex boyfriend? Doesn't he have a right to move on? I hope that he checked his facts before attacking the bloke in question. I know plenty of women who would think nothing of telling any old lie to get their ex bashed up. As Elizabeth argues, some women lie.
Posted by benk, Saturday, 12 February 2011 10:01:48 PM
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Many years ago I read an article in the Waikato Times, NZ which said the Hamilton police did an analysis of reported sexual assault/ rape cases. It revealed that 30% of allegations were proven to be false. No doubt the percentage of actual false allegations would have been higher than that.

Does anyone know of any research done in Australia on false allegations?
Posted by Roscop, Saturday, 12 February 2011 10:44:49 PM
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AGIR believes you can stay out of trouble (rape, I presume) if:
"a) You moved in circles which celibrated purity, honesty and true love.
b) Regularly reinforced those values with others who shared them.
Bad things still happen to Christians, but the chances and probability are far less... of that you can be sure"

Who can be sure AGIR? You?
Where on earth would you get such a bizarre notion from?
Do you have any proof that Christians are less likely to be raped or have 'bad things' happen to them AGIR?

Of course, these Christians would also have to be pure and honest, and share these values with other like-minded Christians?

You mean like priests and Christian Brothers AGIR? Surely you couldn't get anyone more 'pure' or honest than these Christian men?
Yet some of these guys raped children AGIR!

If you are suggesting it is the women who should be 'pure' etc, in order to avoid being raped, well what about all those nuns who have been raped in vast numbers in some countries of our world?
Did they 'deserve' it?

No person 'deserves' to be raped, ever.

Christians don't have a monopoly on morality in our world, and to suggest they do is really naive.

Christian people are no more or no less likely to do 'bad things' to other people than anyone else.
Posted by suzeonline, Saturday, 12 February 2011 11:12:59 PM
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Roscop <many years ago I read an article in the Waikato Times NZ
Which said the Hamilton police did an analysis of reported sexual/assualt rape cases. It revealed that 30% of allegations were proven to be false.

Like the high profile Johns case. Like the Mrs. Brimble case.
You could say those allegations were proven to be false in a court of law too.
However there are a lot of people out here who thought the evidence actually pointed to the accusations being true. I don’t want to hijack this thread to get into more debates about those cases because we have had those debates before. I will just say however that one of the men in the Brimble case had been let off by a previous jury on a charge of rape. The jury in the Brimble Case of course weren’t allowed to know his past history as is the procedure in rape cases.

I think that there would probably be a percentage similar to 30% of rape not being able to be proven in this country also. In other words a lot of rapists walk free. I’m not saying false accusations don’t happen but I think they would be in a fairly small percentage compared to the percentage of rapes that actually do happen and justice never gets done.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 13 February 2011 1:32:23 AM
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I think Elizabeth is a little bit nieve. Most women in their right mind have nothing to gain from crying rape and would rather run a thousand miles than to have to go to court and discuss sexual details. There will always be exceptions. The reality is however that those exceptions are much less the norm than men committing rape blaming the woman and getting away with it.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 13 February 2011 1:58:56 AM
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Cherful, you misunderstood what I said about the Hamilton police findings ie 30% of allegations were proven (repeat proven) to be false eg the maker of the allegations confessed to them being false or there was other substantive evidence that showed they were false. It said nothing about “30% of rape not being able to be proven”.
Posted by Roscop, Sunday, 13 February 2011 2:43:45 AM
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<Cherful, you misunderstood what I said about the Hamilton police findings ie 30% of allegations were proven (repeat proven) to be false eg the maker of the allegations confessed to them being false or there was other substantive evidence that showed they were false. It said nothing about “30% of rape not being able to be proven”.Posted by Roscop, Sunday, 13 February 2011 2:43:45 AM>

Interesting!

Notice how the 30% gets turned from 'false allegations' to 'not able to be proven'.

Of course when an allegation of an offense is false, then the offense will not able to proven, without a real miscarriage of justice.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/laws-of-attraction-20110212-1ar79.html

Typically in Australia the laws relating to consent have been changed to improve convictions rates.

Convicting and punishing people after an offense has been committed, does not one thing to prevent the offense from occuring in the first place.

AGIR, post points out how what is said can then be taken and the meaning changed, to do a bit of guilt tripping.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 13 February 2011 4:47:48 AM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bY4uoDV_pU

This ad has left me somewhat stunned.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 13 February 2011 5:03:34 AM
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Short-term memory loss, Boaz?

>>J Parker...where did I say women who dress sluttily DESERVE to be raped?<<

Let me see... ah yes, here it is.

>>But 'dress' does send a message. A low cut dress and lots of leg sends pretty much ONE message. U can guess what that is.<<

Oh, and again, here...

>>"Slutty clothes could contribute to a marginally sane man thinking it is an invitation to come get it".. she ignores it..and is raped. Who's fault? go figure.<<

But that was Thursday, so there's been plenty of time for sober reflection. Your story has now changed to...

>>...slutty clothing sends a message. The message was not "I am giving permission for you (whoever) to have sex with me"..the message was... "I'm hot to trot for the bloke I approve of"<<

Essentially unconvincing.

As, I'm afraid, is this:

>>I also said nothing about absolving any rapist from guilt. The Bible is quite candid about such things<<

Candid? I'll say.

"And when the LORD thy God hath delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof with the edge of the sword. But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself; and thou shalt eat the spoil of thine enemies, which the LORD thy God hath given thee" Deuteronomy 20:13-14

I know, I know. They only took the women so that they could care for them. That was the least they could do, after the "LORD thy God" helped them murder their husbands.

So... thoughtful.
Posted by Pericles, Sunday, 13 February 2011 3:05:58 PM
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JAMES H.

I didn’t misunderstand what the article meant at all and I nearly did state that in my post but I was trying to convey my doubts as to the statement that 30% of rapes can actually be proven to not have happened and to question the validity or interpretation that the police (males perhaps) put on their investigations and to show how easily that could be construed to have a different meaning. In other words I would like to see the actual results and proof that this article claims to have. I have serious doubts about it.

After all it is a very difficult task in a courtroom to actually prove rape when it is only one person’s word against another and yet suddenly according to this article there is all this actual proof that these rapes didn’t happen.

It also seems strange to me that this 30% or more like 40% is very similar to the figure I have heard quoted of accused rapists walking free because the charge cannot be proven, not that there was any actual proof that it didn’t.

I’ve sat in on a lot of conversations with girls and women in the course of my lifetime (just in everyday course of life) and I have heard a hell of a lot of stories of sexual attacks on girls and women just from amongst those.
My own daughter at the age of thirty told me some information about a friend she knew at school, that she has kept to herself until now, just recently, at the age of 30years she has felt she could speak to me about it.

Understanding the horror of having a son or husband who is innocently accused of this by an emotionally disturbed woman, my long experience of life still convinces me from what I have seen and heard first hand and different stories I have read that in 95% of these cases the women are telling the truth and the men are just using the difficulty with proof in these cases to get away with it.
Posted by CHERFUL, Sunday, 13 February 2011 4:45:03 PM
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Dear Sus and Pericles.. no problemo... If I give it.. I also must take it... your positions are noted, and valued.. but I can't respond in detail.

Suffice to say... your opinions address real issues, all of them worthy of exploration.
or..some deeper personal reflection and reading ? :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 13 February 2011 7:00:12 PM
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CHERFUL, you wrote <It also seems strange to me that this 30% or more like 40% is very similar to the figure I have heard quoted of accused rapists walking free because the charge cannot be proven, not that there was any actual proof that it didn’t.>

Now it is either a crime was committed, but no evidence was found to support, conviction or no crime was committed at all.

In the US there is the innocent project, where men who were convicted of rape on eyewitness testimony and other evidence are now being set free, because dna evidence did not support the initial conviction.

The way you wrote your comment seems support the assumption of guilt, regardless.

Personally I would like to see the introduction of lie detector tests for both alleged victim and alleged perpetrator. It would be interesting to see what the results would be.

You say that you would believe 95% of women, yet the much promoted use of what once beleived to be true, suppressed recovered memory syndrome has now found to be highly inaccurate and many innocent fathers have been falsely accused.

Meredith Maran came clean on her accusation against her father.

<"I think, maybe, this happened." And, of course, the statement of accusation is all it takes to put the wheels in motion. Either legally or in your family. One thing I've learned is the relevance of the phrase "the perfect storm." Not only for me, but for a lot of women I know who made these false accusations, it was very much a social phenomenon.>
http://www.salon.com/books/int/2010/09/20/meredith_maran_my_lie_interview

Katie Rophie in her book 'the morning after' gives an example how during a reclaim the night gathering, one of the female students accused a male student of raping her, (he was innocent).

Remember the hysteria over breast implants, affecting womens health, a company was bankrupted, thousands if not millions of women received compensation for problems that were never ever caused by the implants.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 13 February 2011 8:21:49 PM
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cont..

You say that you trust what other people who just happen to be members of your own gender, and disbelieve what people say who are not members of your gender.

Just because a person is male, does not mean that they are automatically lying, unless it is about how much money they earn ;) or how good they are at sports.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 13 February 2011 8:22:44 PM
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So true, Boaz. So true.

>>Dear Sus and Pericles.. no problemo... If I give it.. I also must take it... your positions are noted, and valued.. but I can't respond in detail. Suffice to say... your opinions address real issues, all of them worthy of exploration. or..some deeper personal reflection and reading ? :)<<

It is definitely good that you recognize that there are real issues that you need to explore, and I'm modestly pleased to have been a factor in bringing these to your attention.

Sadly, I suspect that you will never quite get around to the "deeper personal reflection" that you so desperately need to undertake. It would, I suspect, be extremely emotionally painful.
Posted by Pericles, Monday, 14 February 2011 10:38:19 AM
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JAMES H <the much promoted use of what was once believed to be true,
Supressed Memory Recovery System, has now been found to be highly
Inaccurate and many innocent fathers have been innocently accused.

I always thought the idea of the Supressed Memory Recovery System was highly doubtful. You say many fathers have been innocently accused I don’t think it has been that many actually, it’s just that the media has made a huge beat up of these cases.

I still think we are only dealing with about 5% or so but these cases get a lot of publicity. I know about the men released in America on DNA evidence but that was because rapists who jump out of bushes or appear in bedrooms in the middle of the night are not real visible not because the women lied about being raped.

If other men didn’t commit these offences then other men would not be falsely accused. I still think mistaken identity and emotionally disturbed women who take a rape case to court are in the smaller percentage of rape cases. You may get a vindictive woman who may threaten to do this but they rarely have the guts to follow through and take it to court and if they do their mental instability and inability to keep their story straight is quickly realised.

The number of all types of sexual assualt as well as rape would probably at least triple the statistics if they were all reported so that would make the much reported mistakes even more likely to be the tip of the iceberg when compared to the staggering sheer number of these crimes. You are getting all het up about a few compared to the staggering number of victims.

Women confide in women about these things they don’t sit around and talk to men about it. From what I’ve seen and heard from women young and old and from all walks of life I actually think the sheer number of these crimes would be staggering.
Posted by CHERFUL, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:27:52 AM
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Spot on Cherful. The number of unreported rapes is higher than statistics might reveal. Many people (including men) choosing not to report for fear of re-living the event as well as being victimised all over again by doubters and the judicial system especially when you see the nonsense written about dress styles as a legitimate excuse. Just not worth it and it has to be the victim's choice.

Many men are just not aware of what happens behind the scenes. Many women have been in that position either themselves or in supporting a friend.

However, those who really 'cry wolf' do make reporting a lot more difficult for legitimate victims.
Posted by pelican, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 9:09:32 AM
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Pelican – “Spot on Cherful. The number of unreported rapes is higher than statistics might reveal. “

Who knows what the statistics reveal? If you look at the NSW Rape Crisis Centre’s latest annual report.
you see it just lists number of contacts and not much more…not very useful statistics I suggest.

Total Contacts
New clients 1,851
2-4 contacts 951
5+ contacts 5,302
Total 8,104

What a contact is, is not explained and statistics on outcomes are not shown.

I note in the report it is said “childhood sexual assault up by 40%”

http://www.nswrapecrisis.com.au/Resources/Annual_Report_2009-10.pdf

(NSW has estimated pop of 7.2 mil)
Posted by Roscop, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 11:58:36 AM
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CHERFUL, problems with sexual assault statistics, occur when the definition gets changed but human behaviour remained the same.

The idea that in most circumstances consent can be implied, but when it comes to sex, well more specifically heterosexaul sex. Consent must be clear and the person must not in anyway be affected by drugs or alcohol.

Yet people use drugs and alcohol for the specific purpose of lowering inhibitions.

You have already indicated that what you believe is fact, and I must add that there is a fair amount of what is known as fear mongering.

Eeva Sodhi

Wrote the following,

http://web.archive.org/web/20050308193646/http://www.nojustice.info/CampusRapeandSexualAssault.htm#Rape

<However, the "estimates" were based on research that included questions like: "Have you been forced to have sex with anyone?" Furthermore, about 35% of the respondents did not consider the incidence that they reported to be a crime.

"Forced" is a very subjective concept. The interviewer may simply goad the respondent by expanding the question with "did you say ‘no’ at any stage or did he threaten to leave you if you did not agree?" , etc.>

Also see perceptions are not facts and manufacturing statistics.

One of the problems with having a preconcieved conviction, is that any arguement, research that does not match that perception is automactically discarded.

Typically you talk up the assumptions of unreported rapes, and minimize the consquences of recovered memory syndrome.

But Recovered memory syndrome is more important in that it shows how it is possible for people to come to believe something is true, even when it isn't.

Typically CHERFUL as you already show believing that more men are guilty than is reported, makes it much easier to turn a blind eye or to justify treating men as a group and individually in ways that would otherwise be unacceptable.

What the behaviour of the women in the Order of the White Feather showed, is that women will mob men as a united front, with the slightest of excuse.
Posted by JamesH, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 7:56:10 PM
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Roscop, what the data does not show, is the number women who have been sexually assaulted by another woman, either digitally or with a toy.

One acquaintance told me that they were much much more determined than blokes she had meet.
Posted by JamesH, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 8:12:52 PM
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I guess the case of the guy who claimed that he was sexually assaulted with a sex toy whilst on stage with a stripper is instructive.

With many witnesses, and full admittance that something took place, it came down to the jury deciding whether he gave consent or not, or the intention to penetrate. He said that he didn't consent, she said that he did and that if anything happened it was an accident...

A jury found the stripper not guilty.

So I guess this man just 'cried wolf'.

Given this case, why would any woman actually go to the police in situations of he said / she said?

Excepting of course if other factors come into consideration in the above matter.

http://www.news.com.au/national/stripper-linda-naggs-cleared-of-bucks-party-rape/story-e6frfkvr-1225758211161

Note in this article the defence of 'accidental rape'.
Posted by Dougthebear, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 9:23:11 PM
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<Women confide in women about these things they don’t sit around and talk to men about it. From what I’ve seen and heard from women young and old and from all walks of life I actually think the sheer number of these crimes would be staggering.Posted by CHERFUL, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:27:52 AM>

Ah a culture of misandry, footballers are often accused of having a culture of misogyny.

Part of the female bullying technique is tell bad stories

< One could even say that the TEEN RELATIONSHIP PROJECT (TRP) by the LAMARSH CENTRE FOR RESEARCH is an excellent example of circuitous female aggression as each illustration depicts boys as the main bullies (each picture has at least one more boy than girl bully in it). These graphics are next to text that tells that the shoe is on the other foot: girls, not boys, are not only more indirectly aggressive but also more violent physically, and the older they grow the more sophisticated they become in their aggression.

We are told, since our childhood on, that one picture is worth a thousand words, thus by a few strokes of a brush the researchers>
Eeva Sodhi
Posted by JamesH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 5:38:38 AM
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Cherful,

I sympathise with the dilemma that you describe but when you write 'If other men didn’t commit these offences then other men would not be falsely accused', that really is getting close to profiling, to labelling all men as probable, not just potential, rapists, as if one guy getting chrged and jailed is just as good as any other - a sort of collective punishment.

We are talking about two tragedies:

* women who are raped;

* men who are jailed for such offences, which they have not committed.

One cannot compensate for one tragedy by bringing about another.

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 2:38:21 PM
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Loudmouth there are areas in this that people do not want to go near, or want others to even try to explore.

Various road blocks are put in place, that stop exploration and examination of the processes involved, that may or may not lead up to a crime being committed.

For example a man may behave in certain way with one woman who finds that type of behaviour acceptable, and then he comes across another female who finds his behaviour to be unacceptable.

Given the research finds that what women find attractive in a male, can vary depending on what part of her cycle she is in.

There is also the physiological responses that can occur under certain circumstances, for example women who attracted to men on death row in America or career criminals with violent histories.

Bettina in her book the sex diaries, wrote about a man who was sick of intiating sex, so stopped, and as a consequence hasn't had sex for a number of years.

There is a paradox, where some women both desire and resent male attention. Some women do admitt that if their partner "doesn't try" they feel that their partner nolonger finds them attractive and feel rejected, even though it is much more likely that it is the male who will have his approaches rejected.
Posted by JamesH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 4:26:12 PM
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Barbara Leckie in her paper on the bullying tactics of school girls found that one of the methods used, was to spread bad, false stories about another, as well as revealing confidences.

<Bullies feel entitled to use their power over others when their aggressive tactics are rewarded and reinforced or left unchecked at home, with friends, in the classroom, on the playing field, in digital games, on television> Eeva Sodhi

Leckie also found that female bullies justify their behaviour by saying that 'they deserve it' or 'were asking for it'.

There was a wonderful blog about bitter single females, written by a female(it nolonger exists) it basically showed that during coffee or drinks, nights out, that these women would dump on men. Basically talking about the negative characteristic of men.

<If other men didn’t commit these offences then other men would not be falsely accused.>Posted by CHERFUL, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:27:52 AM

this is possibly true, but however all the attention is focused on catching and punishing men who happen to commit a crime.

Nobody is out there teaching young heterosexual males, how they can get their needs met without becoming a criminal.

Even if a male is getting his needs met with the willing consent of a female, he still can become a criminal very easily.

Basically there are many shades of grey in human behaviour.
Posted by JamesH, Wednesday, 16 February 2011 8:18:24 PM
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<Women confide in women about these things they don’t sit around and talk to men about it. From what I’ve seen and heard from women young and old and from all walks of life I actually think the sheer number of these crimes would be staggering.Posted by CHERFUL, Tuesday, 15 February 2011 2:27:52 AM>

Darren Blacksmith wrote this article.
http://pandora.nla.gov.au/pan/38333/20031110-0000/www.kittennews.com/kn_mag/06_jun03mag/warrior_07.htm

<Vast swathes of working environments are now practically all female, and they can be pretty hostile for a man to enter.>

<To witness a woman flirting with a male delivery man to get what she wants, then making bitchy comments about him just after he’s gone is to understand how much crueler and duplicitous women can be than men.>

Wendy MCElroy at Ifeminists, wrote

<The mother of all feminist myths on campuses today is that one in four female students has been the victim of rape or attempted rape. So states the conservative Independent Women's Forum in a recent advertisement in student newspapers across the country. The ad referred to feminism as a "cult" and warned that anyone who believed two or more of the ten listed myths might need "deprogramming." The backlash was swift.>

The power of nightmares
http://hereticalsex.blogspot.com/2008/03/power-of-nightmares.html

<describes how those who seek power invoke fear in the population in order to present themselves as the rescuers. "All men are rapists and that's all they are" is a good example of that tactic in use. >

Hence demonizing men, or taking an issue and grossly exaggerating the extent of the problem, whilst at the same time minimizing or dismissing issues that affect men, or even the negative consequences to human relationships.

Another part of the tactic, is, I don't if anyone has noticed, but feminist claims are now turning up in the scripts on shows like DSI etc, a subtle form of brainwashing and propaganda process.

Hitler, Stalin (Communism) both used this technique in films.

The next tactic to either accuse people who try to explore the issues and look behind the feminist rethoric as being misongynists, or to make personal attacks.
Posted by JamesH, Friday, 18 February 2011 7:35:53 AM
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JAMES H

The fact that the stripper was found not guilty just demonstrates how hard it is to get convictions in these cases if the victim is found to have agreed to be in the presence of the rapist under what the jury considers to be morally dubious circumstances.

The man agreed to particpate in what the jury would see as a consenting sexual game and actually removed his clothing. The same moral judgement that women are subjected to if they happen to have trustingly gone to a man’s room or invited him into their room after a happy night out.

You don’t see the man as guilty in these rape cases yet you are incensed by the jury applying the same moral judgement when it is a man who does not receive justice. Why is that?

It just proves what I have been saying about men being aquitted time and time again by juries when in fact a huge percentage of them are guilty.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 19 February 2011 1:08:05 AM
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LOUDMOUTH (Joe) <that really is getting close to profiling, as labelling all men as probable, not just potential rapists, as if one guy getting charged and jailed is just the same as any other - a sort of collective punishment.>

It was not my intention to condemn the men who were wrongly imprisoned I think it must be a living nightmare to go to prison for something you never did, especially if you had to spend 20 or more years in jail.

I was responding to James H. who seemed to be blaming “women who cry wolf” for somehow being to blame for the men who were found innocent of commiting rape in America recently due to DNA. I was merely trying to say to James that he failed to mention the men who committed the rapes and were the ones who caused the whole sorry mess in the first place. Note that none of them ever came forward to take the place of these poor men in prison.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 19 February 2011 1:41:27 AM
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I noted that there have been at least four different rape cases reported in my newspaper in my hometown here in Queensland this week and barely a week or a month goes by where there isn’t a rape case or an incest case and it’s been that way in the newspapers ever since I can first remember reading them and that’s quite a few decades now. I’ll bet those stories are repeated in newspapers all over the country every month.

There have been a few really high profile horrific ones where murders were involved, going back here over the years, a couple of the worst involving young children.

I picked up an out of date magazine while waiting somewhere recently and it had the story of a woman who is now a high profile lawyer in America and has recently been involved in defending people in a high profile sex sporting divorce scandal over there.

She said as a young woman she went out on a date with a doctor one evening and after their date he took her to the hospital to see his patients before taking her home and suddenly pulling out a gun when they went inside and raping her. She said she knew it was no use going to court because who would believe that this caring doctor who had taken her see his patients would have raped her afterwards. She did however go on to become one of the highest paid lawyers in America today, who particularly defends women. This man has cunningly set this up to do his rounds like a caring doctor and then commit this assault and I wonder how many times he got away with it. You read these sorts of things all the time, men probably don’t because they wouldn’t be interested in reading women’s stories in women’s magazines.

Then as I said there are quite a few private stories I know of too that have been kept quiet as well. You go figure how much of this is going on.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 19 February 2011 2:29:10 AM
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I too, have a story about a doctor and patient, except this time it was a female doctor and male patient.

It sounded almost so unreal to be unbelievable.

The doctor in your story sounds as if he may be a psychopath.

I believe that it is best to be sceptical until more evidence is made available. This is such a highly emotive subject and it is easy to get caught up in it, whilst suspending rational and logical inquiry.

Recently a man was murdered because is was erroneously believed that he was a child abuser, and a few years ago man was bashed and killed in a park after he was accused of being a rapist, he was gay.

<The findings of a US study offer the best explanation yet for a paradox that has baffled psychologists since sex surveys began in the 1960s.

Heterosexual men routinely report they have slept with more partners than do women. These figures, however, are statistically impossible - the average for both genders should be about the same.>
http://www.angryharry.com/reWomenFakeSexNumbers.htm

There was the recent Duke Lacrosse playerss who were accused of rape, and another less high profile case where the males involved were partaking in a group sex activity, and were later accused of rape. fortunately for them, one of them recorded the activity on a mobile phone and it was consensual activity.

There is no doubt in my mind, that there are people who are definitely guilty of committing a crime, are found to be innocent.

You wrote about the stories in women's magazines, Myrna Blythe wrote about how the editors of womens magazine sell unhappiness and misery.

Secondly I had it bought home to me one day, when a story I knew the actual details too, was published in the papers. Apart from the names and what happened, it was a totally different story to what actually transpired.

So a fair amount of artistic licence was applied, it occurs daily basis, in magazines, current affairs, or newspapers.
Posted by JamesH, Saturday, 19 February 2011 6:45:21 AM
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Cherful, it was I rather than James H who posted re the stripper.

And I did not say that a man was not guilty in cases where a woman has either withdrawn consent or where consent was assumed by the male when it was never actually given by the female. I also recognise that consent can be conditional, for instance, the woman consenting to sex as a commercial act, or on the condition that the male use a condom.

My point was that a jury was somehow managed to be convinced that either the male consented to being penetrated (which seems to be one part of the defence - ie, he was on stage, on his hands and knees with a stripper behind him equipeped with a device for just that purpose) or that she didn't really intend to do to him what everyone now accepts happenned.

Now I can relate to 'accidental contact'. Nearly ever man can give examples of where he has accidently brushed up against a woman's breast with his arm, even when such contact is sought to be avoided. But claiming accidental pentration in this case does seem to be going too far.

And I am sure that no male would get away with that. (excepting, of course, Julian Assange seems to be making a good case to justify illegal behaviour, ie, acting outside the conditional consent that he received in Sweden).

The stripper must have had good counsel, and as we all know an accused's previous history and character cannot be raised in front of a jury by the Crown.

This thread is titled 'Women Who Cry Wolf'. My point is actually that not all women cry wolf, and that many who don't cry out at all can look at the stripper case for an example of 'why bother putting myself through that humiliation'.
Posted by Dougthebear, Saturday, 19 February 2011 6:50:58 AM
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I should add, people should not automatically be believed or disbelieved.

Not every one is a liar, and not every one tells the truth.

Even if someone is telling the truth, they may leave out some details.
Posted by JamesH, Saturday, 19 February 2011 8:13:17 AM
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Cherful says “I noted that there have been at least four different rape cases reported in my newspaper in my hometown here in Queensland this week and barely a week or a month goes by where there isn’t a rape case or an incest case and it’s been that way in the newspapers ever since I can first remember reading them and that’s quite a few decades now. I’ll bet those stories are repeated in newspapers all over the country every month.”

Cherful, the big flaw in your argument is your thinking that one rape case = one incidence of rape or one incest case = one incidence of incest, unless the case is one in which there has been a conviction. In the very large town in which I live, from the official statistic that I’ve seen, there would hardly be more than one or two rape convictions in a whole year. Perhaps where you live Cherful, the males there are raised by hopeless single mothers who hit the bottle and are living on welfare and out of other peoples’ pockets, to have no respect for women.
Posted by Roscop, Saturday, 19 February 2011 10:09:57 AM
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ninaf,

It may be that no one is "entitled" to sex, even in marriage.

however, without it one is not "entitled" to be married at all.

non-consummation is not grounds for divorce, it is grounds to regard oneself as not having been married.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Saturday, 19 February 2011 11:37:45 AM
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Cherful, "I noted that there have been at least four different rape cases reported in my newspaper in my hometown here in Queensland this week and barely a week or a month goes by where there isn’t a rape case or an incest case"

There is no problem arriving at a short list of towns where sexual and domestic violence are common and of course other crime is high as well. However that doesn't say anything about the incidence of crime in the broader Australian community, or prove that police are 'soft' on rape, or infer that the effort put into investigation is any different relatively speaking, from comparable crimes. I'd guess that around 40% (most likely higher) of serious crime investigations do not result in a conviction (and the reasons can be various) and rape allegations are probably no different.

It seems very odd that some reports show such a high incidence of rape in countries where you would expect it to be low, examples being Australia and Canada,
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_rap_percap-crime-rapes-per-capita
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 19 February 2011 11:48:03 AM
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Rusty

It really doesn't matter whether you regard youself as married or not. The right to define marriage, and whether someone is or isn't married, resides in the state, the body politic, and not with the individual. Marriage is a legal institution, not one of the mind.

Non consummation is not considered by the state as a reason to consider that a couple are not legally married.

From a brochure on the a Family Law Courts website

"The Court will NOT declare a marriage invalid on the
following grounds:

Non-consummation of the marriage
Never having lived together
Family violence or
Other incompatibility situations."

It should be remembered that sex and marriage are no longer considered as being tied together. No one ever marries for sex more.
Posted by Dougthebear, Saturday, 19 February 2011 1:17:32 PM
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Apologies Doughbear,
I thought James H, was referring to the aggression of the female stripper in his post after yours, when he makes reference to female bullying and aggressiveness.

The case you describe is an excellent example because it portrays the dilemmas Juries face in trying to decide about consent when it is basically her word against his and why juries so often make the wrong decision .

I was actually pondering this stripper case you raised today. I, too, would have thought the jury would have found her guilty and I gained more insight into the fact that in the absence of any real evidence a jury must make a decision based on the perceived moral character of the accused perpetrator and the victim. The only thing concrete they can make a moral value judgement on is the presented situation in which the assault took place as they do not know the complaintant or the accused personally.
Witnesses can’t be relied upon because they lie to protect themselves or are just mistaken.

Therefore the only avenue left to the jury is to assess the assault situation for moral wrongdoings. Like the woman being alone in a man’s room after a couple of drinks. The situation puts the woman on the wrong moral foot with the jury. The same in the stripper case, the jury judged the man based on the morality of the situation. His morality appeared faulty to the jury because he placed himself in a morally compromising situation.

Yikes this is scary justice, but the system hasn’t got much else to work with when there is a lack of clear evidence. Let’s hope none of us man or woman ever finds ourselves as the chief stars in one of these courtroom dramas.
Posted by CHERFUL, Saturday, 19 February 2011 10:15:09 PM
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There is a gender sexual paradox.

When James Hewitt split the beans on his affair with Diana, he was condemmed.

Yet women regularly spill the beans on their affairs with rich and powerful men, and it is the men who are condemmed.

James was condemmed for revealing secrets, and women who reveal secrets, the men are condemmed for being sleaze bags, slime balls or what ever.
Posted by JamesH, Sunday, 20 February 2011 6:14:03 AM
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Women who cry WolF is not limited to sex, but to other areas as well.

For decades now we have been sold a furphy about the Glass Ceiling.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/men-not-to-blame-for-the-glass-ceiling/story-e6frg6nf-1226009085801

<THE glass ceiling may be all in the mind. According to research, a lack of ambition and self-confidence, not overt male sexism, is holding women back from senior management roles>

But what is more telling is the willingness of feminists to attack and blame men for the behaviour of their own gender. Take for example the claim that women are still unequal, because they do not have equal representation on boards, in politics, yadada yaadada.(because of sexism and discrmination)

All this shows an under lying hostility towards men.

Yet when men try to explore counter arguements or even try to examine underlying motives they get labelled.
Posted by JamesH, Monday, 21 February 2011 5:39:19 AM
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Poison Ivy, what ever the triggering event was, Poison Ivy the girl at the centre of the St Kilda football scandal is out of control.

Whether Nixon had inappropriate relationship with her or not, the cries to burn him at the cross, misses entirely her role in deliberately setting him up.

So far she has published photos, and set-up a senior person. Even if she manages to destroy the total AFL club, it still will not be enough for her.

So she had a relationship with a player, got access to his computer down loaded some pictures and published them on the net.

She secretly video recorded Nixon in his underwear and released that to the media.

It is claimed that at 17 she is not old enough to be responsible for her own decisions.

http://angryharry.com/rethirtydays.htm
<Investigators concluded Shong faked Internet chat sessions -- essentially chatting with herself -- purportedly talking to Fry about their sexual contact.

"Everybody in the court system who has looked at this case agrees it's unprecedented the lengths she went to to fabricate evidence," said Stuart Dunnings III, Ingham County prosecuting attorney.>

Poison Ivy is toxic to any male who has anything to do with her, and Poison Ivy will be the poster girl for feminists to enforce stronger laws or to invent new ones, in an attempt to protect Poison Ivy and girls/women like her from being responsible for their consequences of their own behaviour and actions.
Posted by JamesH, Monday, 21 February 2011 8:16:01 AM
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Dougthebear,

I am aware of a case in the nineties, where the court did in fact rule that the marriage was invalid.

Non-consummation was the principal grounds.

Perhaps the slighted partner needs to actually apply?

Maybe the rules have changed but that might not sit well with people who made their commitment uinder other rules and expect consideration under those rules.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Monday, 21 February 2011 1:34:23 PM
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Rose C., how would you describe yourself?
"I'm just an average, everyday 49-year-old."

How do you view others here on the OLO Forum?

"I've had a good look at various posts lately and it seems most posters are wowsers, rabble-rousers, religious reactionaries and there's even a rather odd poet in there for good measure. Whether this sampling of humanity is a reflective microchosm, or merely the rantings of a bunch of self indulgent blow-hards with two much time on their hands, is anyone's guess. It seems that this site attracts person's who hold extreme views - like moths to a flame." 
Rose C, Wednesday, 9 February 2011 11:30:36 AM

So why do you think this bunch of oddballs come here? And are you any different?

"I'm just an average, everyday 49-year-old mother-of-three who is fed up to the back teeth with not seeing her kind being realistically represented via the electronic or print media. I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it anymore." - Rose C. 29/12/10
 
Yes, Rose, me too.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Monday, 21 February 2011 10:03:54 PM
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http://www.sovereignindependent.com/?p=13955

<By Jean Cloons – The Sovereign Independent

I'm a Feminist, Now what?

Dad what is feminism?

Oh That! Well! A bunch of half-women-half-men that like dressing-up clothes started it. They like the feel of woolly aprons and robes on their skin, that’s all. They hide from public view in lodges, but they’d skin your hide and tassel at the drop of a fez. They like brooches and badges. Regalia they call it. The half-women-half-men recruited half-men-half-women in order to turn all future gene-rations into a soup of half-men-half-women-half-women-half-men. They launched an all-out attack on normality through fiction, drama, music, comedy, novels, soaps, work, education etc, in fact all of the new normal society was gene-rated by them in this way. Feminism they call it.

Dad, that’s not true, feminism is about equal pay and opportunities for women.>

Read the rest.
Posted by JamesH, Tuesday, 22 February 2011 6:42:15 AM
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Dan is not 49 years old, not a mother of anybody.

He is male christian who believes in "creationism".

Views he supports have enjoyed a pervasive hold upon our entire society for centuries. The increased understanding and potential control we have over our condition and circumstances have occurred in lockstep with the retreat of the religious views Dan supports.
Such views still enjoy disproportionate influence upon our society, enjoying virtually dissent-free dissemination from the pulpit, funded by tax-exempt donations not available to other forms of entertainment.

So, no. It is not a case of "me too rose, me too"

It is more a case of whinging, and hoping to get the snout in further, anytime anywhere.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Wednesday, 23 February 2011 10:17:40 PM
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JamesH,
St Kilda Football Club and the AFL are in the news now again for the wrong reasons. But this is nothing compared to the media frenzy that is coming later this year with the rape trial of Andrew Lovett.

We know that St Kilda drew last year’s final 68-68, and were only one breath away from winning the flag for which their supporters have been waiting for decades. And they did this without their prize recruit, Lovett, running through the midfield for the entire year, after having delisted him after his rape charge following his night out with his teammates.

It will be front and back page news. Consent and intoxication will again be in focus.

Rusty,
This is a forum/discussion/debate website, where people share different views. If you don’t believe that I, along with all others here, am entitled to my considered opinion, or can’t handle someone disagreeing with you, then I think you’ve come to the wrong place, mate.
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Thursday, 24 February 2011 10:06:52 AM
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"AND still The Age won’t apologise to the politician whose career it destroyed.

Nor will it even report that the woman who falsely accused Theo Theophanous of rape - and had a reporter friend plaster her claims all over the paper - has now been convicted of defamation. "
http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/column_will_the_age_now_say_sorry/

The way a wolf pack operates, is that, once on the trail of it's quarry it falls slient, then the wolves take in turns to wear the quarry down.

They fade silently into the background.
Posted by JamesH, Thursday, 24 February 2011 12:13:38 PM
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Interesting thoughts of Beth Farrelly,

<'To find an honourable role for men is not to regress feminism, but to advance it. The muscular control of men by women is, I would argue, a hallmark of civilisation and although under-control looses brumbies on the streets, over-control turns the horse into a donkey, or maybe a mule. Is that what women want?">
Posted by JamesH, Thursday, 24 February 2011 2:07:25 PM
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Danny,

once again you just don't get it.

If you had grounds, then disagreement would be worth it.

Rusty
Posted by Rusty Catheter, Thursday, 24 February 2011 7:42:01 PM
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JAMES H. <whether Nixon had an inappropriate relationship with her or not, the cries to burn him at the cross misses entirely her role in deliberately setting him up.>

The scene of footballers hanging over a private toilet cubicle and deliberately taking photos in the Johns case seems like a set-up to me. Brendan Fevola taking secret photos in a shower and then publishing them also seems very similar to what the 17year old girl has done.
How the males hate it, when, what a lot of them have been getting away with for years is done to them. Maybe the footballers should straighten out some of their own childish behaviour if they don't wish to inspire copycats.

I must say it does feel good to see the tables turned on these arrogant footballers for once. A lot of them have made a careeer of setting women up, a lot of the incidences not reported I’ll bet. The ones we know about are probably only half the story.

Even after this girl had published revealing photos of the last lot of footballers, Nixon is still stupid enough to go to her room and have a relationship with her. I think the donkey cap you mentioned fits this fellow more than the brumby one.

Where did the girl get the idea to set these blokes up in the first place,I’d say she learned it by reading about their own behaviour in some recent much publicized cases.
Posted by CHERFUL, Thursday, 24 February 2011 10:43:18 PM
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I do 'get it' pretty well, Rusty. I get that you don't like that I'm free to express my views and convictions.

However I don't want to say too much lest it distracts from the central argument, such as that of Cherful and others who have put meaningful comments pertinant to the topic.  
Posted by Dan S de Merengue, Thursday, 24 February 2011 11:53:38 PM
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Please hear me out before posting any condemnation here.

Women who go out and get drunk, wear revealing clothes and flirt with strangers may well place themselves at a greater risk of sexual assault. However, this does not mean that they deserve it or that anybody has a right to assault them. It also doesn't mean that they are responsible for the assault, or that they should not behave in such a way. At the end of the day, if a person is assaulted, the blame lies with the person committing the act - not the person receiving it.

As an extreme analogy, people who venture out of doors are at greater risk of being shot than people who stay indoors. If they are shot, however, we do not blame them. We take risks in our lives and, provided that we take appropriate precautions, we should continue to do so. The ignorance of a young girl who doesn't have a "party safe plan" does not justify the ill-intent of a man who goes out and preys on such girls.

As for the notion that girls who "put themselves out there" somehow cause bad things to happen to them, well, I find that insulting to men as well. Apparently all of us who are blessed with both X and Y chromosomes are also cursed with an inability to curb impulse - we see flesh, we must have it. That's just absurd, really. Men who wish to do bad things to girls cause bad things to happen to girls. If no girls revealed any flesh, what would happen? The girl with the prettiest dress, or the girl with the nicest laugh, or the girl with the tidiest hair would be assaulted. Why make themselves ugly to save themselves from people who will do bad things no matter what we do?
Posted by Otokonoko, Friday, 25 February 2011 12:29:10 AM
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Otokonoko,

Thank you. Right on the button :)
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 25 February 2011 9:03:01 AM
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