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The Forum > Article Comments > Is the AEU beating a broken drum? > Comments

Is the AEU beating a broken drum? : Comments

By Ian Dalton, published 27/10/2010

Why do those charged with imparting numeracy and literacy to children persist in misrepresenting the facts?

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Candide, you had better get sick of the P&C associations then.

Recently, I was asked to stand in for the delegate from my kids P&C to the regional body. I did so, only to see if it was the same as another district regional body I had attended as delegate for a couple of years, some years ago.

It was no different. A group of middle aged lady school teachers, running the so called P&C association as a support body for teachers. In both regions I was left in absolutely in no doubt, that as a non teacher, & a male, I was doubly unwelcome.

Chris, when teachers attend a place of work for 37.5 hours a week, for 48 weeks a year, you can start that sob story, & not before.

Oh, & don't give us that rubbish about how much work they do at home. I may even believe you if you claim 5 or 10% do some work at home, but having lived with a number of them in Sydney, for many years, that story won't wash.

Most of our primary school kids would be better off with last years high school graduates, with a six months army method of instruction course, teaching them, than they are with the opinionated lazy bunch we have being overpaid in our schools today.
Posted by Hasbeen, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 5:15:43 PM
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Hasbeen, your rejection of the notion that teachers do work at home (based on your experience living with a couple of slackers in Sydney once upon a time) is a little absurd.

In a standard teaching week at my school, teachers have 250 minutes (5 periods) of non-contact time out of a paid working week of 25 hours (note that school starts at 8:30 and finishes at 3:10). Take off 50 minutes a week for scheduled meetings and we have 200. In that time, we must plan 1,250 minutes worth of lessons, mark anywhere up to 210 students' work at a time, contact parents, complete the ever-increasing paper trail and generate our own resources. I'm sure plenty of teachers wing it, but come 4:30, when most of my colleagues are heading home, I see only one or two walking out empty-handed. There is no way that work can be done in the time allocated.

This isn't a whinge for more pay, or better conditions or anything like that. It is a statement of fact that contradicts your dismissal of "opinionated, lazy" teachers. Perhaps it is your silly and uninformed attitude that had you stonewalled at those P & C meetings. I don't expect to enlighten you here, but I cannot let your ridiculous drivel go unanswered.
Posted by Otokonoko, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 5:56:08 PM
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Totally agree that the total amount of government (Federal, State/Territory) funding should be used when making comparisons, not just Federal.

Valid points on the use of government funding in public schools, but we should compare apples with apples. Some public schools are probably inefficient and waste money (let's hope they are a minority), but some private schools (and some public ones) do receive other sources of funding, whether it is a corporate or individual donation or some other source.

Finally, something that is not discussed much but some people have mentioned before is the independence of private schools. I realise education is a complex industry and I don't really advocate for an elimination of public funding for private schools but what kind of a system do we have where public money is used in a private enterprise?

Given that private schools receive substantial amounts of public money, are they fully accountable and transparent?

http://currentglobalperceptions.blgospot.com/
Posted by jorge, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 7:07:51 PM
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Hasbeen,

I would agree 100% regards P&C meetings. They are nothing more than glorified teacher's meetings, which is the reason why so few or any parents ever go to them.

The education system has very little connection with the public, other than using the public as a source of money.

By not telling the public the whole truth regards school funding, the AEU cannot be trusted. The AEU has also opposed every state and federal government for many years, and really some thought should be given to deregulation of that union.

The only way to reform the education system is to tie the money being spent on schools to something like a % of GDP, and to also tie the pay of teachers to student marks.

There would be a major improvement in student marks within a few weeks.
Posted by vanna, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 7:19:29 PM
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Hasbeen,

Teachers are required to attend their place of employment for 38 hours a week, seven hours a day on non-meeting days and one extra hour on each of the three meeting/PD days. There is no reason for them to attend 48 weeks of the year: normal employees attend on only 46 (once public holidays are taken into account); they work on evenings, at weekends and in holidays, easily making up for their shorter working year. It is not unusual for teachers to work 50 hours a week, though teacher-bashers seem to think a computer must prepare and correct all the student work.

In my first school, in the 1970s, union strength, with a little help from me as timetabler, ensured the maximum weekly teaching load was about 18 hours. By the 1980s, it was legally set at 18 hours a week (plus a fortnightly extra). The last Liberal government used retrospective legislation to increase it to 20 hours a week and was trying to go further til it was stopped by the AIRC and the High Court. It is now effectively 19.2 hours a week, unless teachers are conned to agree to more, which they so easily are.

I am not putting forward a “sob story”. I am putting forward facts. Teaching conditions are worse today than they were 20 years ago. You might argue this is a good idea. It is a bad idea. If society wants the best people to teach its children, it will pay them well and provide them with good working conditions; in particular, with the class sizes and time to do their jobs thoroughly. If it does not, able people will leave teaching. Work by Andrew Leigh shows that the decline in teacher pay has been accompanied by a decline in the ENTERS of trainee teachers.

My main point was that the AEU and the teachers it represents refuse to confront their own role in the underfunding of government schools: their industrial weakness and political naivety has allowed their workloads to increase. Blaming the federal government is a distraction.
Posted by Chris C, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 7:40:42 PM
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Bowie - I realise the Public system deals with the most 'problematic' of our Nations students. These kids undoubtedly add millions to Education costs through interminable 'programs', damage to property, interupting the learning of others and driving teachers into stress related illness.

Re-read my post and see that I come out in support of Public schools with suggestions that would cost more in the short term but reap savings plus social and economic benefits in medium and long term. Class sizes limited to 20, segregation of 'slow' students into classes concentrating heavily on the basic 3Rs, segregation of persistant troublemakers with special intervention. Better behaviour management and discipline options, Teacher competence overhaul.

Meantime facts remain - the Private sector produces a superior product ON AVERAGE because of reasons stated. Add observations of 'eyejaw' about syllabus shortfalls (agreed) and we clearly need a return to basics first & second then the "trimmings". Note 'eyejaw' is tutoring Math - not History of First Australians or Theory of Global Warming. Numeracy weakness though is secondary to near illiteracy and inability to spell and construct simple sentences. I see quite a bit of that in job applicants - much more commonly in the State School graduate (or drop-out). This is observation not judgement.

I believe every Aussie kid has the right to the OPPORTUNITY of a decent basic education. The Private system seems to be doing a better job but they generally have a higher proportion of better 'raw material'. Extra funding for Public Schools - Yes - but unless there are serious changes to improve EFFECTIVENESS it would probably be money wasted.

Finally - it is nothing short of a crime that otherwise 'normal' young people can 'complete' High School and be unable to read. This isn't rare and as far as I'm concerned is unforgivable! You've all seen the Bumper Sticker "If you can read this - Thank a Teacher"? So - if you can't read this .....? What despicable, idealogical, illogical idiot decided these kids could PROGRESS through the grades without meeting minimum benchmarks?
Posted by divine_msn, Wednesday, 27 October 2010 10:21:14 PM
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