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The Forum > Article Comments > Afghanistan: can we justify being there? > Comments

Afghanistan: can we justify being there? : Comments

By Scott MacInnes, published 19/10/2010

There have to be very good reasons to justify what would otherwise be regarded as murder.

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sarnian wrote:

lentaubman,
>>...but if you’re not ever going to win, what is the point of throwing more lives away?>>

As I've already said, we should leave. TODAY if possible.

I simply object to any characterisation that even hints the Taliban are "freedom fighters" fighting against an "occupation".

In fact the Taliban are largely a creation of Pakistan’s ISI – the Pakistani equivalent of the CIA. Pakistan set the Taliban to conquer Afghanistan in order to checkmate their strategic rival, Iran, in that region. In effect the Taliban is a Pashtun based occupation force supported by Pakistan. I doubt if even Afghan Pashtuns want the Taliban in power.

The reason the Taliban can win and the coalition can’t is not because the Americans are so “brutal” as you stated; it’s because the Taliban are MORE BRUTAL than anybody else in the field in Afghanistan.

Get that?

We are not losing because we're too brutal.

We're losing because, quite rightly, we don't have the stomach to be brutal enough.

Notably the Taliban hide among women and children so that killing them always involves civilian casualties. It is they, not the Americans, who are the biggest war criminals in Afghanistan.

Please note the wording of Article 28 of the Fourth Protocol to the Geneva Convention:

“The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations.”

To put it in crude terms if the Taliban operate from an orphanage that orphanage becomes LEGITIMATE TARGET for bombing. I’m not suggesting one should actually bomb an orphanage under those circumstances. I’m simply pointing out that in and of itself that would NOT be a war crime.

When the America-haters on OLO get on their high-horses and accuse the Americans of war crimes and brutality they somehow seem blind to the war crimes of the Taliban.

Yes we should get out of Afghanistan and abandon the Afghan women to their fate.

But we should also avoid any moral posturing
Posted by lentaubman, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 3:03:01 PM
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I hope no one in Afganistan reads the tripe written by some of you lot.
They would recon they are being helped by a mob of skwibbs.
Full time soldiers would be ashamed of what is said as well as their families.
Career soldiers no what they are in for. They enjoy the conflict. If they didn't want the situation they wouldn't be there.
You want a nation of terrorists; you should be up for treason.
That sort of talk comes from yellow bellies..
Posted by 579, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 3:51:55 PM
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lentaubman writes:

"I simply object to any characterisation that even hints the Taliban are "freedom fighters" fighting against an "occupation".

One of many recent public opinion surveys of Afghans themselves may shed light on what they think about the war. (see http://www.icosgroup.net/modules/reports/afghanistan_relationship_gap/press_release) found:

70% of the Afghan men we interviewed felt that the military operations in their area were bad for the Afghan people.

55% believe that NATO-ISAF are in Afghanistan only for their own benefit, to destroy or occupy the country, or to destroy Islam,”

75% of interviewees stated that they believe foreigners disrespect their religion and traditions,

68% believe that NATO forces do not protect the local population”.

The survey also supports the obvious fact, despite conflicting Afghan Opinions on the Talaban, that as the main opposition to the Western occupation, they are receiving SIGNIFICANT AND INCREASING LOCAL SUPPORT.
Posted by Nigel, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 4:09:33 PM
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Rather than address all the comments, (opinions can be rightly held without criticism) the following are important to remember as they are facts, not opinions.....

*When Russia was fighting the Taliban (and all the warlords were on the US payroll) the Taliban were making bullets by hand, one by one for their fighters. Relevance? They can now buy whatever they want from their drug sharing profits. Where do they buy them? Check Israel, France and the UK.
*In those same days, Russia was burning the crops of poppies when they could. Result? No big drug sales; no weapons, not much future for the Taliban.
*Then the same warlords (with American assistance) became politicians and are now running the country under the banner of the Government of Afghanistan, the most corrupt entity in the history of the world. Have they an interest in change? Hardly.
*In 2010, not one hectare of poppies has been destroyed. How do they distribute the drugs? I can't give the registered numbers of the aircraft in which they are transported (and it's not Airlines of Afghanistan) and it certainly isn't by camel train.

Let's not even ask who distributes them throughout the world, eh? But let's assume it isn't the Afghans.

One could go on forever as this not one of the most intelligent comment offerings on OLO but just dwell on the above for a minute. Just digesting the website from Veterans Today in one of the early comments was enough to make me realise that once again we have been conned by the likes of Howard and of course the easily manipulated Gillard, so sincere, so patriotic, so hypocritical and not a compassionate bone in her body. As time passes, I am confident that she will reign over the worst management structure in Australia since the days of McMahon.

And in the hands of those knaves are our young soldiers, sadly for them and their families.
Posted by Rhys Stanley, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 4:58:11 PM
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Nigel

Re the opinion poll you quoted.

And of course Afghan women were freely able to express their opinions?

Get real Nigel!

Here's the REALITY.

If the people interviewed think that NATO will prevail they will express a preference for NATO.

But if the coalition announce their intention to start withdrawing and the people on the ground feel the Taliban will ultimately prevail they will express a preference for the Taliban.

Similar polls were conducted during the Vietnam war. Many South Vietnamese expressed support for the Viet Cong when they thought the Communists were going to win. But once the communists took over as many as could fled.

As for ICOS - I know nothing about them. However I have noticed that people who conduct these sorts of polls in war zones have a way of GETTING THE RESULTS THEY WANT.

Now here's the funny thing Nigel. Occasionally the people of Pakistan get to vote in a free and fair election. When they do the people in the tribal areas adjoining Afghanistan always seem to prefer the secular parties, not the Taliban type parties, by an overwhelming margin.

Now what do you expect me to believe. An “opinion poll” conducted by a group that may have an agenda? Or the indications of actual free and fair elections in the region? Or, for that matter, WHAT AFGHAN WOMEN HAVE TOLD ME?

BTW if the Taliban truly felt they enjoyed such overwhelming support there was nothing to stop them participating in the recent elections in Afghanistan.

In the end it DOES NOT MATTER what the Afghan people think because it’s NONE OF OUR BUSINESS.

So never mind the opinion polls. We should just get out of there ASAP even though it means abandoning Afghan women to their fate.

But you should not be kidding yourself – or trying to SALVE YOUR CONSCIENCE – by quoting silly opinion polls conducted in war zones by organisation that probably got the result they wanted.
Posted by lentaubman, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 5:24:48 PM
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Kevin Bracken,the President of the Victorian Trades Hall said that the destruction of the towers of 911 was due to controlled demolition.He as was reported in all the major media.Even Julia Gillard weighed into the debate calling portarying him as a lunatic conspiracy theorist.

If Kevin is such a nutter,then why does he illict such derision from the media and Julia Gillard?

Surely it would have been wiser to ignore Kevin Bracken's comments than to make an issue of a perceived conspiracy lunatic fringe element.

I think that the neo-con facists are hedging their bets,thus revealing partial truths via their derision.
Posted by Arjay, Wednesday, 20 October 2010 7:22:23 PM
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