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The Forum > Article Comments > The whale in the bay of Australian politics > Comments

The whale in the bay of Australian politics : Comments

By Max Wallace, published 4/10/2010

There is no constitutional separation of church and state in Australia.

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Whale? No such luck, its a beached school of rotting carcases! But it is supported, as you point out, by a an alleged "school" of LLBs whom are all responsible for arguments in support of myths. These myths being religion's god(s) and race, both emperor's new clothes ensconced in Australia's constitution and propped up by LLBs.

If there is to be no government support for religion, what is a religion? I would argue for a science based case to provide primary sources for their "holy" texts. No primary source? Not a religion. This in much the same manner that since Watson and Crick we have had evidence the myth of race. Simply, humanity is the biological isolate.

We have had evidence based medicine for some time now, how about an evidence based constitution? Otherwise our entire legal profession has no basis in either fact or its professed "law."
Posted by SapperK9, Monday, 4 October 2010 10:48:02 AM
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Interesting article. Being an atheist I have to wonder what the governments are up to putting chaplains in public schools. Of course we hear the cry 'they are not teaching anything of a religious nature, just counselling'. Then' I beg the question are they counsellors or chaplains? If they are there only to counsel, then employ fully trained counsellors. Too expensive I suppose. That would be the bottom line.

I have a great deal of angst about giving untold money to so called religious orders, unless they completely comply with what 'a church' should be.Even then I have doubts about giving taxpayers money to churches of any description. But the 'so called' churches which are really cults obviously should not be receiving any money from the taxpayers.
Posted by RaeBee, Monday, 4 October 2010 11:39:25 AM
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The ignorance is astounding in some quarters. Firstly, Australia has no separation of church and state. Secondly, America has no separation of church and state either and people who say otherwise haven’t read the First Amendment
Posted by History Buff, Monday, 4 October 2010 1:08:52 PM
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Over and above what they make from schooling, “God knows what Australia’s charities and religious groups do with their tax-free earnings”; a $70 billions gift from the government year after year , wrote Adele Ferguson on BRW, 24-30 March 2005.

And God doesn’t spill the beans!
Posted by skeptic, Monday, 4 October 2010 1:24:02 PM
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A Constitution

Of the Lawyers

By the Lawyers

For the Lawyers
Posted by skeptic, Monday, 4 October 2010 1:30:14 PM
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>> ""America has no separation of church and state either and people who say otherwise haven’t read the First Amendment""
Posted by History Buff, Monday, 4 October 2010 1:08:52 PM

The Establishment Clause of the First Amendment refers to the first of several pronouncements ... that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Together with the Free Exercise Clause ("... or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"), these two clauses make up what are commonly said as the "religion clauses" of the First Amendment.

The establishment clause has generally been interpreted to prohibit
1) the establishment of a national religion by Congress, or
2) the preference of one religion over another.

The first approach is called the "separation" or "no aid" interpretation, while the second approach is called the "non-preferential" or "accommodation" interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Establishment_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

The Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause together read:
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Exercise_Clause_of_the_First_Amendment

....

The Aust Psycholgical Association has a view the govt is liable for the preponderance of chaplains in schools over qualified councillors.

http://www.psychology.org.au/news/media_releases/10aug2010/

The catholic Church is crowing over the ""state education minister Verity Firth's "guarantee ... to the future access of major faiths and denominations to students in State schools" "".

http://cathnews.com.au/article.aspx?aeid=23532

The preponderance of politicians who are Catholic and lawyers seems disproportion.
Posted by McReal, Monday, 4 October 2010 6:08:11 PM
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The High Court of Australia ruled that charlatanism is the price we pay for religious beliefs and that if ANY, religions were asked to prove their beliefs, ALL would fail.
Sigmund Freud diagnosed religious beliefs as akin to a childhood neurosis. A neurosis of superstition fed and spread by the superstitious, like a virus by cunning priestcraft using the three most primal fears of mankind. Fear of nature, fear of other humans and fear of death. The school chaplains and any priest of any religion are no more than charlatans spreading a neurosis, what these charlatans are inflicting on children in taxpayer funded, corporate religious cult private schools and now our public schools in no more than child abuse, we should be outraged our taxes are diverted from hospitals and other infrastructures and are being wasted on ridiculous supernatural fantasy! Religious superstitions are an insult to any intelligence and the natural order. Religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel, any politician using religion to garner votes is a scoundrel, a charlatan not worthy of office, the entire Liberal National party coalition and many in the Labor party!
Posted by HFR, Monday, 4 October 2010 7:28:15 PM
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you raise rather a petty issue max
the real-issue is the sepperation of lawyers from making laws

recall the other sections about those who take oath to foreign juristictions..like lawyers..swearing their oath of layalty..to the british law society

yet half the politions..ARE or..WERE lawyers
you know polititions who make..laws
that other lawyers..now judges judge..!

that then goes to appeal..to yet other former-lawyer..judges

when the rweal issue is sepperation of powers
lets egsamine the truths revealed in lawyers doing treason
and making laws...[for the rest of us..just-us...or just-ice...either way were frozen out of fairness..by colluded deciets

lets slso mention lawyers
[now public servants..writting the laws..
judging and defending...the just-us..system]

its all a sham

read the constitutioon dont just parrot ya briefs
the con gives all freedom of belief
to believe...OR NOT...

..the justice system cannot ask/nor demand either way

seeing as how you raised the issue..lets egsamine further

seeinform people that statute..isnt law
that in klaw we all stand abouve the law
unless we have an injured party
or a legal contract

deeming things criminal..just to jail the common people
isnt part of serving the common weal

where no advantage is sought...no obligation is incured
not able to be infured

we have been conned by the law society
forced to surrender our standing under god
into UNDER/..standing..

standing under the act
via uni-lateral..[one way contract]
unfairly surrendering our god given rights

mainly because their lord-ships..have decieved us
while doing their treasons..lawyers making laws

making dead corporations..legal persons
while ever more holding living beings accountable..tied by acts under full liability

while dead state instruments[corperate/persons..
gain all the advantages..only due the living

see incorperrated..'persons'...are state/fictions
thus they need pay/taxes on income[govt got no right to tax wage]

but the clever lawyers blindside us all decieved us into lower[under]-standing..simply by virtue of uni-lateral contract...

we are told to sign...[make your mark..
[of the beast]...on the dotted line]
uni-lateral...con-tract

via un-informed concent..!
thus not binding

little wonder you wish to remove religion[god]..
from the picture even more...

how do you sleep at night?
Posted by one under god, Tuesday, 5 October 2010 5:04:56 AM
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In response to RaeBee.

You highlight a good issue, but have not understood 'the rules'.

Chaplains are not allowed to counsel students.

That is written into the DEEWR rules, the people who hand out our ATO funds to the 'religious charlatans' the HC did indeed speak of.

And DEEWR also prevents them from proselytising, but not evangelising.

But, with 'appropriate qualifications', DEEWR do allow chaplains to counsel students.

So, the next question might be 'what is an appropriate qualification'?

Well, that's easy. Just about anything.

But in Qld, chaplains are not allowed to counsel, at all, nor evangelise or proselytise, under Ed Qld rules.

Of course, school chaplains do all three, all the time.

For something created, supported, promoted, and run by people who pretend to be 'Christian', there is a great deal of dishonesty involved.

In fact, without dishonesty, it would not work.

Most people are unaware that Scripture Union, the employer of most of these school chaplains, is also a Registered Training Organisation, churning out 'trainee chaplains'.

They get paid millions by DEEWR to provide 'infrastructure' to employ chaplains, they skim money from each $20k of wages to chaplains, they earn Commonwealth monies for each trainee they take on, and they charge trainees to get the 'qualification' SU and Ed Qld require them to sign up to, but interestingly, not to complete.

School chaplains have become a nice little earner for parachurch organisations.

That has far more to do with the lobbying of our weak politicians than any genuine desire to 'help' students.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Wednesday, 6 October 2010 8:50:07 AM
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I for one look forward to seeing the antediluvian NSCP contested before the high court; it's a trojan horse for fundamentalists and sundry proselytisers. Millions of taxpayer dollars are spent annually funding sinecures at best (chaplains have no authority or professional training to act as counsellors), but typically covert "missions" to sabotage and compromise secular education.
Religious predation in state schools is an outrage that has to be banned once and for all. Indeed, people should then be held accountable for the damage already done!
The real challenge, as Orwell had it, is to get "outside the whale"
Posted by Squeers, Saturday, 9 October 2010 2:43:38 PM
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