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The Forum > Article Comments > Overseas students flee Oz’s future > Comments

Overseas students flee Oz’s future : Comments

By Malcolm King, published 24/9/2010

The crash in international student enrolments and the ramifications will be felt across Australia - from the Pilbara to the cafes of Darlinghurst.

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“$18 billion last year and provided about 70,000 jobs in VET, universities, government agencies and support enterprises.”

The figure seems to have risen from $7 billion to $11 billion to $13 billion to $18 billion, but the number of students is declining.

This so called export industry of training foreign students is based on what students spend while in the country. If they get a job and earn money while in the country, (as most seem to do), and then spend the money they earnt in Australia, then the universities class this as an export.

If then spend their money on imports, such as an imported mobile, TV set etc, then the universities still class this as an export.

The $18 billion is basically creative accounting.

We now have 6 times more foregin students per head of population than the US, and why do academics need foreign students so much?

Because academics have not been effective enough, and they haven’t developed enough wealth in society to run the education system. The education system has produced a skills shortage and a large trade deficit.

For decades the education system treated the public as a cash cow, but now the education system has reached the limit of how much it can extract from the public, while giving back as little as possible.

So now it needs to extract as much money as possible from foregin students.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 24 September 2010 6:51:59 AM
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Part of the reason why unis need foreign funding is due to the gap between government funding and operating costs. Be mindful that the fall in overseas students will mainly hit the mid and low range unis.

Part of the problems is that about 34 of the 38 Australian unis run pretty much the same courses. For all of the reports going back to the 1980s, they're still living in the past. A failure to diversity.

The author is correct to say that the public don't care much about TAFEs or Unis. They're not an election issue. Without public support, I fear there will be more tears for our tertiary education sector.

Vanna - you're probably right. I'd day $15B is about right, but keep in mind overseas student spends on rent and food has a multiplier effect for the economy.
Posted by Cheryl, Friday, 24 September 2010 9:10:59 AM
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How is $18 billion creative accounting? Thats just an assertion without proof.
Posted by jjplug, Friday, 24 September 2010 10:06:30 AM
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the higher education industry has been on a good thing for far too long with the cash cow from overseas students, and maybe it's about time they they started treating people as individuals who could do with some personal tutoring now and again.

also, here in the Philippines, there are some excellent private high schools and universities who also attract foreign students, and at a fraction of the fees. The medium of instruction is English, and the climate is benign.
Posted by SHRODE, Friday, 24 September 2010 10:23:40 AM
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Australian universities and our useless politicians need to start concentrating on Australian students. Encouraging foreign students simply for money equals encouraging immigration rorts. Malcolm King gives no evidence that 'two thirds' of students return to their own countries, and he doesn't mention the ones who do return home only to apply for visas at a later date to take control of certain professions in Australia as with the Chinese.

King also claims, falsely I believe, that immigration rorts were ‘minority’ occurrences; but he goes on to say that the Government’s much needed crack down on the connection between student visas and the real quest for permanent residence has had “…a harsh knock-on effect for the university sector.” If this is the case, he can hardly expect anybody to believe that immigration rorts were minority events. If his minority claim was true, it would have no effect on most students who were supposedly coming here to just study and go home.

The foreign student racket has served only to allow back door immigration and distort the true increase in population; ensure incompetent university management of income; get skills on the cheap, while Australians miss out on training. The Howard Government must take most responsibility for the cynical abusesof foreign student intakes. For all its faults, the Labor Government has, at least, removed the nexus between student visas and easy permanent residence. But even that action will allow the same old cons to continue for a while.

The ‘poor struggling’ real estate and building sector – always pushing for more and more customers to the detriment of Australia – will survive, as will everybody “from the Pilbara to the cafes of Darlinghurst.” Australian politicians and their urgers need to get their heads out of their bums and start working for Australia and Australians.
Posted by Leigh, Friday, 24 September 2010 10:37:26 AM
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All students need is the source material and park to read in. The expensive buildings and high teacher salaries are a waste. Let the students learn for themselves.
Posted by TRUTHNOW78, Friday, 24 September 2010 11:30:49 AM
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Cheryl,

Exactly what do they contribute when almost nothing is made in Australia. Their textbooks are imported, their cloths are imported, their computers are imported.

So most of the money they spend goes straight offshore.

Except for food and rent, and considering the fact that there is an accomadation shortage in most cities, they are probably pushing up the costs of cheap rent.

And "failed to diversify". Nearly everything inside a university is imported. Someone can do the same course through 100's of universities all around the world.
Posted by vanna, Friday, 24 September 2010 1:43:00 PM
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Hi Vanna,

They made direct contributions through fees, through purchasing local retail goods and services, through rents, etc. Most of the money stays onshore and helps generate jobs, infrastructure spends. That money is in turned taxed and contributes to state GST revenues.

You've sort of hit the nail on the head here as GST revenues rise and fall as a factor of consumption (and a formula which I don't understand). Some might say, well that's good for the local kids. Not so. Unis will have to put up fees will to cover the short fall. HECS will go up.

They probably did push up CBD rents up but no more. Most of the 'stuff' you see in a uni is owned by the uni or in partnership with the Gov. What international students take away is intellectual capital - in their heads. We need that badly especially in engineering, accounting, IT and design.
Posted by Cheryl, Friday, 24 September 2010 1:59:13 PM
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No Cheryl, Unis won't have to put up their fees, what they may have to do is join the work force.

About25% or more of their people could go find a real job to start with, with no noticeable effect on the student body.

Another 30% might have top do something a bit more often. For example they may have to pop in more than twice a week, & do some work.

When students start to think that tutors are merely mythical creatures, it's time for at least some of our highly paid Uni people to roll their sleeves, & do that work.

You only have to listen to the rubbish on the ABC, or read some of the articles here to know that too many academics, with too little to do has a very bad effect on the quality of the output.

One can live in hope.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 24 September 2010 2:33:39 PM
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No argument out of me there Hasbeen. Some uni and tafe students are certainly 'shoppers'. But that's OK for a while. I didn't know what I wanted to do until I was nearly 30.

Also unemployment is 5.1 percent. Where do you expect these kids to work?

One nasty point which King - who sounds like a rabid Tory to me - highlights is race prejudice. Some of the comments on international students (excluding OLO as it's a fine site) are clearly motivated by racial prejudice, eg, Australians for Australia, darkies and Muslims out! Too many people!'

I can understand how some people from the lower middle classes who have spent half of their lives on welfare could easily blame new arrivals for their lack of initiative. But to blame international student is reckless. The fault Brutus is in ourselves.
Posted by Cheryl, Friday, 24 September 2010 2:57:05 PM
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What about the new trend to set up universities in the country of origin of the consumers? If it is the legitimacy of the university name that is desired, it is more efficient to QA a provider in say India to produce Yale, Oxford or Melbourne University degrees at home. If it is immigration that is desired, there is a separate process for that.
Posted by Cornflower, Friday, 24 September 2010 3:07:54 PM
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I wonder why the Labor Government changed the visa conditions for international students? Wouldn't it have been easier to fine the culpable insitutions (which unless I'm mistaken were not any of our respected universities or colleges)? Or provide more oversight so real learning was taking place instead of just "enrol here and get permanent residence."

As for the argument of "international students are taking Australian places" - has it been proven? Not every high school student wants to go to university and there are plenty of people who get their first uni degree in their 30s or 40s. There are also plenty of people who decide uni is not for them and choose to do something else after 6-12 months at uni. If I've got my facts right, places in medicine for example are regulated in each State so there would be an argument for "no vacancy" there, but then shouldn't we be looking at finding ways to increase teaching capacity for courses like these if at all possible?

Finally, true, a lot of the goods purchased in Australia are imported, but that doesn't mean that the money goes overseas. There are shops, warehouses, marketing firms, truck drivers, wharfies, accountants etc all employed in Australia that are necessary to get all those imported goods to the consumer.

It would of course be preferable if Australia were able to produce every imaginable product (laptops, books, cars, clothes etc) but that is just not possible or even desirable unless we want to subsidise whole new industries with yes, taxpayer money.

Finally, what better way to make friends with and learn about other countries than have international students live and study in Australia? If they want to stay and become productive members of Australian society, I say: why not?

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/
Posted by jorge, Friday, 24 September 2010 7:08:13 PM
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Cheryl and jorge,
I don't think you seem to get it.

The education system is supposed to educate the public, who then work and produce something, and then pay tax, some of which goes back to run the education system.

The system should be self-sustaining, but should the public not produce enough to pay enough tax, then not enough money goes back to run the education system.

So the education system becomes overly expensive.

That is now the situation, whereby, the universities have to bring in money in the form of foregin students.

The situation cannot last forever, and eventually the education system has to educate the public, who then work and produce something, and then pay tax, some of which goes back to run the education system.

I also find the following rather repulsive "If they want to stay and become productive members of Australian society, I say: why not?"

We have 600,000 unemployed, but it appears that universities want to wipe those people off the slate, and simply bring in someone new.

The 600,000 unemployed actually represent a failure of the education system.
Posted by vanna, Saturday, 25 September 2010 9:06:44 AM
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vanna,

I definitely agree that the education system educates people to work and thus pay taxes. The system, however, is not self-sufficient and with continuous intervention (for the worse) from successive governments on tertiary funding (universities, TAFEs etc) we only have our politicians to blame.

During the last day of this year's election campaign there was this report on the Coalition's proposed funding cuts:
http://www.smh.com.au/federal-election/society/fury-over-proposed-coalition-cuts-to-education-20100819-12s4w.html
To be fair, I don't think Labor has produced anything of worth either.

As for unemployment, I don't think it's a failure of the education system but more a failure in some sectors of the economy (the Global Financial Crisis we had is still not completely out of the way). Also, there are many people who change jobs or decide to end their current ones before securing a new position at a later date - this happens all the time. If you take international students out of the system the whole international education industry would collapse and we would have a whole lot more unemployed people around. What we should we looking at are the long-term unemployed who are in effect locked out of the jobs market.

How could we tackle the issue of long-term unemployment?
- Special training programs?
- Free tertiary education for the long term unemployed?
- Incentives for businesses to hire long-term unemployed workers?

I am not sure how many support systems are in place at the moment, but I hope our political representatives don't throw this issue into the too hard basket.

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/
Posted by jorge, Saturday, 25 September 2010 12:52:21 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=11006#184051

Sorry Cheryl, Our welfare system has been designed by Uni "Academics" to keep people on welfare as long as possible. The number of "Social Workers" has been growing exponentially for 50 years now & everything is getting worse, not better.

What Australia desperately needs now is to purge our entire education system, Universities, TAFEs & Dept of Education Bureaucrookracy of Loony, Left, Humanities & Education Academics.

Baxter "Rehabilitation Resource" would be a great importunity for them to start digging a canal connecting Lake Eyre to Spencers Gulf with picks & shovels.

They might learn something about real work.
Posted by Formersnag, Saturday, 25 September 2010 1:04:08 PM
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@ formersnag.
Read this:
http://slackbastard.anarchobase.com/?p=20743
Welfare Administration is indeed big business.
Posted by Jay Of Melbourne, Saturday, 25 September 2010 3:41:48 PM
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jorge, "If they want to stay and become productive members of Australian society, I say: why not?"

The "Why not?" is obvious: that is what the much criticised scams rely on, the bait of citizenship and bringing the 'relatives' in later. If education is good enough it should not have to rely on bait to attract buyers. The scams against students and the claims of violence and 'racism' directed at students have done tremendous harm to Australia's otherwise good standing in the international community and damaged our tourism as well.

In any event it should be a much better deal for the real students and for the educational institutions to provide the delivery of courses in India and other countries where the services are needed. Other countries are moving to do this and Australian tertiary educational institutions would be foolish not to follow their lead. Or do you think Australian universities are not good enough to pull the customers unless there is a substantial bait?

In fact, you might agree that because Australian universities are not ranked that highly through international comparison, a prize with every enrolment is probably needed. However it is only through competition that they will ever improve.
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 25 September 2010 4:05:21 PM
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Cornflower, true. Scams used the promise of citizenship for their marketing.

I'm not saying there should be automatic permanent residence available to all graduates, but we also shouldn't completely eliminate the option. Having international students stay in Australia would allow the Australian economy to reap the benefits of having these new graduates in the workforce.

If I'm not mistaken the current regulations are that graduates from select professions/trades can stay in Australia more or less hassle free. But what about someone who has studied a different course? Just because their qualifications are not in demand shouldn't mean that they can't stay; perhaps they will find a different, almost unrelated job where their skills will serve them well. Not all domestic science graduates or accounting graduates work in their respective fields, yet I'm sure that they are all productive members of society.

As for Australian universities, several of them are in the top 100 in the world (depending on the ranking system). I consider our universities top class, but sadly a lot of the world does not - I have tried convincing some people that Australian universities are on par with European or American ones but some individuals refuse to even look at the evidence. The following gives a brief outline of Australian university rankings: http://www.australian-universities.com/rankings/
I think the Times Higher Education & QS rankings are now separate, so Australian university positions will fluctuate depending on the system. Here's a different system: http://www.arwu.org/ARWU2010.jsp

Either way, if international student enrolments drop, then the section of the Australian economy that relies on these students will also suffer. By all means we should be encouraging our universities and TAFEs to set up overseas campuses but we need to remember that we would be training overseas students who will benefit overseas economies with little immediate, direct benefit to Australia (I'm assuming local staff would be employed to handle the administration at these overseas campuses).

And competition is definitely good, but let's have a closer look at how the rest of the world funds their tertiary sector (I don't have any information readily available).

http://currentglobalperceptions.blogspot.com/
Posted by jorge, Saturday, 25 September 2010 6:14:24 PM
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jorge,

I have an interest in tourism, where the damage from the international publicity from alleged racism, violence and scams involving overseas students in Australia have impacted on forward bookings and will have a negative flow on effect for years.

There is the added problem that some countries have played some underhand diplomatic games over their students studying in foreign countries. Australia should avoid creating more opportunity for them to do that.
Posted by Cornflower, Saturday, 25 September 2010 7:40:29 PM
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Thanks for this topic,

In fact, the issue of giving international students the chance to be resident is quite critical. I am not Australian, but I came from a country which is very attractive to many people, so I understand how you feel. If Australia facilitates the residency it would be hit by millions and if it makes it complicated, the result is seen right now.

Australia has to invset more in it resources not to open the door waiting for International students support. It virtually fells behind the world especially the world where international students come from.

Regards
Posted by Fletcher, Saturday, 25 September 2010 9:14:48 PM
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Degrees mean nothing anymore in this country.If you can afford the hex bill $50,000 will buy you one on science with a UAI of just 65.

When education just becomes another saleable commodity,it prostitutes integrity and standards for the quick fix called money.
Posted by Arjay, Sunday, 26 September 2010 12:08:46 AM
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