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The Forum > Article Comments > Is a negotiated peace between the Greens and the Christians possible? > Comments

Is a negotiated peace between the Greens and the Christians possible? : Comments

By Tim Wallace, published 20/8/2010

The latest exchange of fire between Cardinal Pell and Greens leader, Bob Brown, is a skirmish in a war without any foreseeable end.

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Being pedantic again I would suggest that the recent Avatar film was a necessary parable for our times. At a base level it was about the culture of life versus the "culture" of death.

About the death saturated techno-cratic machine world-view that now dominates the entire planet, as pictured in this stark image:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~spanmod/mural/panel14.html

Versus the wholistic green world-view in which everything is permeated an enlivened by what the great poet Dylan Thomas called the GREEN FUSE and in which ever thing is in one way or another inter-connected in an Indivisible Unity.

In the film the techno-cratic barbarian invaders had already "created" a dying planet (just as we have too), and were compelled by the inexorable logic of their DOMINATOR world-view to conquer Pandora and the Navi---rather than change their way of life.

Which is of course what Western DOMINATOR "culture" has always done. Invade and to one degree or another destroy all other cultures. AND ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO CHANGE. That process of never-ending imperial expansion, and the attempt to conquer nature by brute force is no longer viable---it never was of course.

What was notable about the film was the entirely predictable right-wing group-think response to the film. Including that of right-wing so called conservative religionists such as George Pell.

They all came out loudly cheering for the techno-barbarian invaders and their "culture" of death.

The above image is featured in The Pentagon of Power by Lewis Mumford.
A book in which Mumford describes the origins and historical developments of what he called the Invisible Mega-Machine. Which IS the all encompassing psychic blue-print, or pattern that patterns everything which now patterns the entire world, and every minute fraction of our "culture". Quite literally unto death, if its inevitable deadly logic runs its inevitable course.
Posted by Ho Hum, Friday, 20 August 2010 9:17:54 AM
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Thankfully Cardinal Pell does not reflect the views of the many Christians I know, many who do vote Green or ALP.

If Cardinal Pell looked hard enough he would find enough to be concerned with in the Conservative side of politics. That would mean being able to separate his political views from his Christianity long enough to critically assess which parties represent human interests in the long term.

Many on the radical side of Christianity hate the Greens because they support same-sex marriage. Nothing more, nothing less. I think some radical Christians still resent Bob Brown for raising issues in Parliament about some fringe Christian groups denying access to ex-members to their own children and other questionable practices. It seems if one questions actions by any Church such as response to allegations of pedophilia, fraud, tax avoidance or cultism they are anti-Christian.

These are all spin or weasel responses to real issues that adversely affect people's lives.

Many Christians are involved in the environmental movement. Greenpeace originated from a group of concerned Quakers who felt not enough was being done to protect the environment.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 20 August 2010 9:34:47 AM
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I find some of the widely varied 'Christian' positions to be bizarre in the extreme. Why wouldn't the ability of humanity to live within the limits of this world to be the true test of our 'right' to be it's custodian?

Pell is a right wing ideologue on top of being a Catholic ideologue and has contributed nothing to real solutions to the increasing pressure on our environment and has not addressed sustainability in any way shape or form; more like he's ideologically opposed to efforts to imbed sustainability into our economy and way of life. Like most ideologues his arguments are appeals to ignorance and prejudice and his position is rooted in preserving the power of traditional social structures; developing new and more appropriate ones is beyond his scope and he will mobilise the considerable resources at his disposal to actually oppose such efforts.

Even more strange to me are fundamentalist Christians who fail to see that the use of fossil fuels has all the hallmarks of a deal with the devil - vast wealth and power from the foulest substances found within the depths of the Earth and there's a catch; for every bit of energy it gives, the Earth gains more than 100 times that, making it, bit by bit, more hellish. Instead of reading the fine print to check on that catch they want 'Christian' nations to dominate the world with that wealth and power. Me, I think God has nothing to do with it; people are strongly moved by immediate opportunities and need to be well informed to choose to forgo them for the sake of longer term security and prosperity and there's been a well funded and professional campaign by those with strong immediate interests to undermine confidence in our scientists in order to prevent reasoned policy development. Pell doesn't need to pray more, he needs to fight his conservative urges and get much better informed.
Posted by Ken Fabos, Friday, 20 August 2010 10:07:16 AM
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The hypocrisy of those who continually harp on about the evils of fossil fuels is evident in the willingness to embrace all the benefits from these fuels. We have better heating, better cooling, better travel and we live longer than we use to. The CopenHagen farce along with Al Gores life style just highlights how these preachers make the wealth preachers in America look tame. These same preachers are quick to oppose nuclear power. Go figure!
Posted by runner, Friday, 20 August 2010 11:05:02 AM
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Is this the same Cardinal Pell who had secret meetings with mr rabbot before the last election? The same Cardinal Pell who mr rabbott claims as his spiritual mentor?
Hardly suprising then that he is out to help his little mate into office any way he can.
I wonder what he expects in return?
Posted by mikk, Friday, 20 August 2010 11:32:34 AM
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runner
Take a look at the depletion of the oil field reserves of the USA. The USA peak oil was in about 1973 and current recovery is down to 30% or less of that peak.

Australia's known oil reserves are minor and the relatively minor reserves in North Sea fields are as depleted as the USA fields.

All fossil fuels are finite resources and will eventually be exhausted.

The faster the population grows and the greater the rate of per capita consumption the earlier that day of reckoning will be.

Please, before you raise your head on such issues, make sure you know something about the subject.
Posted by Foyle, Friday, 20 August 2010 12:27:57 PM
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Of course it's possible for the Greens and Christianity (or any other religion for that matter) to coexist - otherwise there wouldn't be so many Christian Greens members and supporters.

However, it's difficult to imagine lunar Right ideologues like Pell and Jim Wallace, or outright nutters like Bill Muehlenberg or Danny Nalliah, tolerating anybody or anything that doesn't conform to their extreme interpretations of Christianity.

Mind you, it is kind of comforting that the denizens of Christianity's lunatic fringe are so threatened by the Greens - indeed, it reinforces our status as the third force in contemporary mainstream Australian politics :)
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 20 August 2010 12:41:04 PM
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Excellent article accept for the begging of an enormously big question.

-Tens of billions given as grants for AGW research: (find something we can use)
-Virtually no review, except by volunteers (Watts Up With That) of the 'scientific' conclusions.
-Large scale ClimateGate fraud needed a whistleblower to uncover a whitewash of an investigation followed.
-Huge sums of money are being asked for by central bureaucracy, large corporations are dizzy at the thought of carbon trading.
-The whole thing reeks to high heaven.

I don't think the author has done the work to get both sides of the story. All you hear in the MSM is climate this or that, no mention of their lust for moral cache as planet saviours, no mention of the global gravy train.Just a pat on the head by our betters and hand over the cash to keep you safe.

All the author needs to do is give both sides proper scrutiny then he'll discover the massive distortion in the public discourse, and come to the conclusion that again we find ourselves in the grip of a secular mania.

"The history of the West is a story of the state absorbing every useful institution into itself" DB Hart

I call for a seperation of science and state.
Posted by Martin Ibn Warriq, Friday, 20 August 2010 4:49:30 PM
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Foyle

'runner
Take a look at the depletion of the oil field reserves of the USA. The USA peak oil was in about 1973 and current recovery is down to 30% or less of that peak.'

I was around in the 1970's when the oil was predicted to be totally gone by the turn of the century. You might be able to fool the naive with scaremongering. Anyway with plenty of uranium in the ground in this blessed nation the supposed decline in oil should not concern any thinking person not blinded by Green dogm
Posted by runner, Friday, 20 August 2010 5:52:41 PM
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runner, what is "dogm".

On the ABC news tonight a Scientist (Chris Sharples) talked about how houses at Roches Beach may be lost sooner than expected as sand banks are being eroded by an increase in sea levels created by Climate Change. Graphic pictures were displayed showing roots of trees exposed by erosion.
I have lately noticed a register that has listed species of fish that are now found in Tasmanian waters due to warmer currents travelling South from Mainland Austraia.
Posted by ant, Friday, 20 August 2010 8:58:29 PM
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Is a negotiated peace between the Greens and the Christians possible?

Only IF and WHEN the Church's relearn the meaning of "inclusive" engagement and the real meaning of the spirit of love.

For example, there are many stories of the church in history. Here is one about Altmann of Passau. 'In 1074 he announced the reforms of Pope Gregory VII, whom he supported in the subsequent Investiture Controversy. In 1076 neither he nor Archbishop Gebhard of Salzburg took part in the Reichstag of Worms and, also like Gebhard, Altmann supported the counter-king Rudolf of Swabia. Altmann of Passau was driven from Passau by supporters of Emperor Henry IV, who in 1077/1078 laid the town waste.'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altmann_of_Passau

For me this example is similar to what is going on today. Be it the events of St Mary's Church in Brisbane, the Popes stance alienating the masses or anything that is occuring in Australia. It is disturbing.

Those of the Church need to demand "reforms", else lose more ground in area's it hopes to gain due to the waste.

The Church could learn from the Greens as they could from the flock excluded now on the outer in St Marys Brisbane.

http://www.miacat.com/
Posted by miacat, Saturday, 21 August 2010 1:09:00 AM
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Let's not get too cute with this. If Brown and Pell want to get it on what would that have to do with their views.

Atheism and Catholocism are incompatible, as these two people are also.

Never the Twain shall meet. Pell is a blind fool and Brown is a zealot.
Posted by RobbyH, Saturday, 21 August 2010 8:38:30 AM
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Very good article.
Do people believe that political parties are made up of mindless troglodytes who unquestionably support party policy to the letter without thought. As a member of The Greens I for one fully support most policy, partly support some policy and disagree with other policy. This is true of all party members that I know and I dare say true of members of other political parties, certainly true of Labor and Liberal party members that I have spoken to. I'm sure within the Church community there is a diversity of opinion on a wide range of issues. Unfortunately unlike political parties the church leadership is non elected and in many cases non representative of rank and file opinion and can voice their personal thoughts to their hearts content, claiming to speak for the whole flock in the name of God, something akin to speaking for the silent majority. Greens and (thinking) church members have much common ground on a diversity of issues.
Posted by Paul1405, Sunday, 22 August 2010 7:03:41 PM
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A negotiated peace is impossible because Pell does not have the authority to make a deal with the Greens or anyone else on anything. What Pope Ratzinger decrees, Pell expounds. Pell helped elect the most divisive Pope in a Century and has loves to play partisan politics with all the levers he can pull.

We are told by conservative members of mono-theist faiths that it is un-Chistian, un-Muslim and un-Jewish to limit human procreation in the name of environmental protection. Their head space is permanently locked into the utterings of their great prophets. In many global hot spots, there is a population race driven by a a fear of being out-populated by rival faiths.

Unfortunately, the best strategy to defuse all religious mind-bombs and particularly the population time bomb, is to preach the facts and the predicted consequences from the writings of eminant climate scientists. These are the modern day prophets who have a profoundly moral message for everyone.
Posted by Quick response, Monday, 23 August 2010 2:05:56 PM
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Cardinal Pell would be happier amongst all those dodgy characters in the Vatican, where he can retire into oblivion and stop being a general nuisance.

It's pretty clear he will be burning in Hell later on anyway, so there is little chance of anyone beyond the close knit circle of Vaticanites taking any notice of him.

Sadly, Abbott is one of those who seem to listen to his venom against 'non Christians', including the Greens.

Which is odd, given that the Greens are riddled with Christians, and far too many Catholics too.

Pell's problem is that he would have been listened to during the heyday of Bob Santagertudis, but these days, most people, even Catholics, have 'moved forward', leaving the likes of Pell and Family Jensen to linger in the fading light of their own brand of 'hateful' religion.

Perhaps Pell should go 'stateside', or to darkest Africa, where the Mumbo is still thought to be powerful Juju magic?
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 23 August 2010 2:17:45 PM
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Hi TBC,

After we finished on Saturday us evil Greens went to the candidates home and ate pizza and drank beer, talked, watched TV. I don't know what the church goers done, but looking at their results they might have went out and nailed someone to a cross or burnt them at the stake.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 23 August 2010 2:31:42 PM
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Paul1405...well, I was out with a mixed group of cyclists, all with differing political views, but all of whom hoped the Greens would blitz the Senate, which they clearly did, and all of whom hoped Abbott didn't get in, while really hoping some miracle might transform the ALP from their idiocy into something worth having around.

The best outcome sounds like what we have, with Gillard and the independents running the show.

However Mad-as-a-Katter is, he's dead right on the abject failure of politicians to cater for rural and regional Australians, and Abbotts plans for the NBN are a prime example.

With luck, Bligh will be deposed up here in Qld, although there is absolutely nothing available to replace her with, so dull-witted are the Qld ALP.

I bet Keneally is aware of her fate right now.... dead meat.

I look forward to the recriminations from the ALP that will burst forth shortly, none of which will be directed at the weakness of the entire ALP caucus, and their total failure to control Rudd in the first place.

But if Gillard loses, she'll have to go straight away, preferably retiring altogether to sweep the floor at Tim's new hairdressing salon.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 23 August 2010 3:40:07 PM
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Jesus the anointed one, the Christ said these words "I am the truth the light and the way", and it is my guess that most here who puport to be his spokesmen have no idea what he is talking about. Because you live in a chook house and cackle doesn't mean that you lay eggs.
Posted by Richie 10, Monday, 23 August 2010 3:42:28 PM
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TBC Keneally is my local member here in Heffron, ALP workers on Saturday were saying they expect at least a 15% to 20% swing. Garrett achieved a -8% swing only 44.4% of the vote in a 'safe' Labor seat, needed Green preferences to get back.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 23 August 2010 6:25:48 PM
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Shame Garrett got back really, a total dud.

Keneally deserves to be dumped out of the house, never mind government.

Good luck in your mision.
Posted by The Blue Cross, Monday, 23 August 2010 6:42:34 PM
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Many (ALP rank and file) didn't think Keneally was a good choice for local member when the party machine parachuted her in over Grusovin in 2003. The bloke who should have got the job years ago was Ron Hoenig now the long serving mayor of Botany.
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 23 August 2010 7:11:41 PM
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.

Well, it looks like ...

.

a majority of Australians does not want either Gillard or Abbot.

Not many want the Greens either.

As for the Christians, they simply are not on option and, from a secular standpoint, they never should be an option.

Both the current prime minister and the leader of the opposition are internal appointments of their respective political parties.

Nobody asked us if we agreed they should hold their current positions, or govern the country and represent our interests.

Having finally faced the electorate, it now appears that neither of them is willing to accept that most Australians rejected them.

Both have chosen to ignore the result of the popular vote and are seeking to "purchase" votes which designated other candidates, again, without consulting the Australians who designated those candidates.

In my view, candidates at an election do not "own" votes and have no mandate from the electors who designated them to "sell" the designations to the highest bidder.

As Churchill rightly observed, there is no perfect democracy but it would be a definite improvement if we were to adopt a constitutional republic, instead of our current constitutional monarchy, and elect an Australian citizen as president, by universal suffrage, in order to put a cap on the eternal and, apparently, inevitable, power struggle associated with party politics.

There is no "vote market" in a presidential election. Each elector's vote stays where he or she puts it and does not get sold over his or her head to somebody he or she does not want ... at any price!

The political power in the presidential suite would certainly straighten out the ideas of all those aspiring tap and toe dancers in the political parties that infest the basement of our democracy, with their incessant intriques and conspiracies which may suit them but are completely contrary to our vote.
.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Monday, 23 August 2010 11:36:05 PM
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.

Continued ...

.

Need I add that in a democracy such as Australia, any political alliance established with the objective of forming a national government to rule the country, should clearly announce its formation and political platform to the electorate before the elections take place, not after the elections are over and the results published.

It is a basic principle of democracy thet the electorate should know exactly who and what it is voting for. Its votes should not be misappropriated and used to elect somebody who was not specifically designated on the ballot forms.

Each ballot is the personal expression of the democratic choice of each elector. It is not a simple commodity that can be traded among political parties long after it has been cast.

"A priori" alliances are democratic. "A posteriori" alliances are not democratic. They are autocratic.

If the political parties are not satisfied with their scores and want to come back for a "double dip" or a "second helping" after the party is over, they should ask the electorate if it does not mind if they help themselves to whatever scraps are left over in the voters' plates that nobody else wants.

.
Posted by Banjo Paterson, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 5:15:50 AM
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"Many (ALP rank and file) didn't think Keneally was a good choice for local member . ..""
Posted by Paul1405, Monday, 23 August 2010 7:11:41 PM

My understanding is her husband was keen to enter politics, but the changes to ALP rules to get more women involved made it easier for Kristina to get a leg-in, especially as hubby was mates with Tripodious and Obeid.

Garrett preaches more about non-climate change issues, from what I hear.
Posted by McReal, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 9:41:51 AM
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Oh McReal, are you suggesting that Keneally is a stooge for her hubby, to say nothing of the odious NSW Right?

I thought that when she was gifted the job she said she was 'nobodies guuuuuuurrrrrrl'.

You must have it terribly wrong..
Posted by The Blue Cross, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 10:10:34 AM
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@ The Blue Cross

LOL. Considering she surmised in her Master of Theology thesis that God is a woman (seriously!), is she elevating herself to equal status by claiming she's "nobodies guuuuuuurrrrrrl"?
Posted by McReal, Tuesday, 24 August 2010 10:48:53 AM
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