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The Forum > Article Comments > Gillard's war > Comments

Gillard's war : Comments

By Kellie Tranter, published 15/7/2010

The major political parties can't offer any sensible, rational, factual or logical explanation for remaining in Afghanistan.

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Kellie, you state

"Unlike the Labor and Liberal parties, the Australian public are actually intelligent enough to realise that a war against insurgents and terrorists is by default a war against innocent men, women and children, that a war to bring peace is an oxymoron and that the impossible task of preventing places from becoming training grounds means staying there forever".

Can I suggest you read the following, notably the relevant sections concerning Afghanistan and Pakistan, although reading all the chapters may also help you learn about the complexity of international relations. It may provide you with many reasons why the West has little choice but to stay there for a long time.

Patrick M. Cronin (ed), GLOBAL STRATEGIC ASSESSMENT 2009 America’s Security Role in a Changing World, Published for the Institute for National Strategic Studies, By National Defense University Press, Washington, D.C., 2009, 46.
Posted by Chris Lewis, Thursday, 15 July 2010 8:51:12 AM
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I can remember when George W Bush started the war
and we said at the time that it was about oil.
Something about getting an oil pipeline from one side of the Afghanistan to a sea port.
My opinion is that there will be no victory in Afghanistan. The Taliban will just withdraw to their multitude of mountain hideouts and regroup.
Posted by Raise the Dust, Thursday, 15 July 2010 8:57:58 AM
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We should be guarding our “national security” in Australia, not in Afghanistan. Let the Afghans look after themselves. Send back the cowards who are coming to Australia illegally while our soldiers are being killed doing the job they (Afghans) should be doing.

Terrorists will always be training, in Afghanistan or elsewhere. The only place we can protect Australia from terrorism is in Australia, by stopping illegals, reducing immigration and being more selective with who we allow in, and stopping Muslim immigration altogether.

Whether or not the Bali murderers were linked to anything or anyone in Afghanistan is quite beside the point, given that we had already fallen for the NATO (we don’t even belong to NATO) request to send troops to the terrorist playgrounds of Iraq and Afghanistan.

And why, after all of the rubbishing Labor gave Howard over Iraq, is it OK for Labor to maintain troops in Afghanistan?

Australia soldiers are more at risk in Afghanistan than they were and are in Iraq.

I have to say, though, that it’s hard to work out Tranter’s “war against innocent men, women and children” when it is Australians we should be concerned about – not Afghans, who are the ones who should be fighting the Taliban if they want them gone. Instead, they are running away to Australia! To hell with them.

The Russians couldn’t do anything with the Taliban or the rat hole that is Afghanistan. Neither will the Coalition of the Silly. In fact, it is a great trick of America NOT to win in the conventional sense: since Vietnam, America has been content to merely leave countries they meddle in paralysed by instability. They could have, if they really wanted to, won in Vietnam, and they certainly could win in Afghanistan. Instead, Obama sacks generals when they try to tell him how they could deal with the problem once and for all.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 15 July 2010 10:54:40 AM
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We would be unwise to ignore the hasty withdrawl of Russia from Afghanistan and the political void that resulted.

We chose to become involved in Afghanistan and therefore have a responsibility to 'fix the place' before we depart. When they have enough infrastructure to function as a sovereign state we can then responsibly withdraw. To do so before will only repeat the political vaccuum and invite extremists to occupy it.
Posted by Salbei, Thursday, 15 July 2010 11:38:39 AM
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Kellie Tantrums is in good form as usual... "plainly incorrect" to the intelligent segment of Australia, "stupid" to the less intelligent.

She just trots out the usual lefty mantra, over..and over...and overrrrr A-gain.

Kellie.. go live for a while in some 3rd world contry.. get some real world therapy and for goodness sake stop reading 18century Marxist rubbish.

I'm going to headline this next bit.. against a background of Kellie's latest trantrum.... where she spitefully says:

"that a war to bring peace is an oxymoron"

No kellikins... sorrrry.. but this is how it realllly is:

@@@ EVERY PEACE NOW IN PLACE, IS A RESULT OF A WAR @@@
or more than one.

So, whether you like it or not...'thats life' (to Sinatra's crooning)

That's life, that's what all the people say.
You're riding high in April,
Shot down in May
But I know I'm gonna change that tune,
When I'm back on top, back on top in June.

aaaah that illusive Utopian dream eh Kelly... you keep reaching..keep hoping.....keep writing... but it's all a dream.. a mirage... it sure as heck ain't life.

Now that large mineral deposits have been found.. oooooweeeee...watch out.. the *scramble* begins... war lord against war lord.. representing different major multinationals.. or nations.. China.. America..France... EU...

The chances of peace in Afghanistan are similar to those of a snowflake in hell.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:07:20 PM
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Hi Kellie

Your article is probably the best I've seen on OLO. This is in terms of use of evidence, argument and succinctness. The reason for the continuing Australian presence in Afghanistan is, of course alliance politics - backing up an American political decision made in 2001 - to deploy military power in Central Asia due to a set of primarily American interests. Australia's presence adds credibility to this exercise of American foreign policy goals.

What adds extra strength to your article is its move to a gut feel, centrist position. Arguments, also used by the Left, are important, but have not been allowed to marginalise the article. I'm talking as someone whose talked the talk of Stalinists as well as fascists and those shades in between. I can see you've had wide experience also.

I think Centrism, a little to the left of our now very conservative Labor Party (talking Green ground here) is indeed the new powerful direction of politics.

Gillard is cynically playing the shifting voter/marginal seat game as a very conventional, establishment, politician does. But people are seeing through that.

Defence Minister Faulkner implicitly agrees with your/our line on Afghanistan as he wants to bail out of a portfolio that is killing our soldiers for US interests. Our soldiers will keep on dying in Afghanistan until America permits us to withdraw.

Leigh

I also agree with your first five paras. Australia's main security interest is defending our region. Our overstretched national security effort has permitted dangerous things to happen – not only in counterterrorism but in geo-strategic areas (which includes allowing the Chinese military into East Timor).

Afghanistan is permanently dysfunctional. Since the nineteenth century countries who have gone in with good intentions of fixing the place with infrastructure and democracy have found that the destructive power of Afghan tribal and opium interests is dominant. This not an issue of Islam - or the failings of invader/occupiers - just a tragically destructive masculine way of life in that country.

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:18:08 PM
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It is not what they say - it is what they do!

Let JG keep rambling about "national security", so long as our brave soldiers are doing their best to save Afghan men and especially women from the terrible atrocious regime of the Taliban.

Can you imagine living in a world where women must cover completely and are not allowed to study, to work or leave home without a male-guardian? Can you imagine living in a world where women can be arbitrarily stoned to death for allegations of associating with a man, or for being raped? Can you imagine living in a world where music is forbidden? where beards are mandatory? where it is not safe to venture out without a rifle?

While dismissing the "national security" and "terrorist" claims as nonsense, as a member of the Australian public I do hail our soldiers in Afghanistan, pray for them and wish there were more of them there, so their holy mission to free the Afghani people can be successful.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:21:41 PM
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Yuyutsu: << as a member of the Australian public I do hail our soldiers in Afghanistan, pray for them and wish there were more of them there, so their holy mission to free the Afghani people can be successful. >>

"holy mission" - WTF?

Australia should withdraw its troops ASAP, before more are sacrificed in an unwinnable war at the behest of an unscrupulous "ally".

P.S. Boazy, Marx lived in the 19th century, not the 18th - but who am I to question such a well-educated historian as you?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:37:16 PM
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CJ Morgan,

I have no concern for this or that "ally", but for the miserable Afghani people. Perhaps you should spend your next incarnation as an Afghani girl, asking "why have the Australians deserted and failed to save me?".

Australian soldiers are not "sacrificed": they volunteered as professional soldiers, knowing from day one that their job involves risking their life and limb. Saving the Afghani people is a better cause to die for than most, as well as a better use of my tax-payer money than most.

When we have the right motive in mind, the war can be won.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 15 July 2010 1:08:50 PM
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An interesting article in last weeks' Guardian by William Dalrymple underlines the West's increasing irrelevance in Afghanistan.

He believes regional players like Pakistan and even India
have better chances of helping to procure peace.

In fact, it seems Hamid Karzai is very much interested in such players.

However, Karzai being friendly with the Pakistani Intelligence (ISI, which is also friendly with the Taliban seems a strange way of heading for peaceful solutions?
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 15 July 2010 2:17:07 PM
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Yuyutsu, I can see that you've bought the pretext for the war in Afghanistan, as opposed to the reason for it. I agree that the Taliban are loathsome, but I disagree that it's worth sending Australian troops to die or be maimed in Afghanistan in a futile effort to defeat them militarily.

What I reacted to was your description of Australian military involvement in Afghanistan as a "holy mission". The Taliban think that their mission is holy, which is sufficient justification for them to impose their medieval strictures on everybody else.

I don't support holy wars waged by anybody, whether it's the Taliban or the ADF.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 15 July 2010 2:32:08 PM
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cj :) *gotcha*.. u passed.

Planta... you've been on every side of politics ? errr sounds a tad unstable there... where will you be tomorrow Pete ?
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 15 July 2010 2:58:31 PM
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Just a gentle reminder for those who are living in the political twighlight zone....

The 'reason' geopolitically we are in Afghanistan is

a) Alliance obligations. (we help them (USA)...they defend us)

b) The strong possibility..nay..probability of a Taliban controlled Afghanistan then taking Pakistan and it's nuclear arsinal.

c) Probably numerous commercial interests

"b" is the most important.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 15 July 2010 3:03:40 PM
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Great article!

Julia suffers from the same myopia that has afflicted a number of Australian Prime Ministers. She too thinks that following America onto its many battlefields will bring some benefit to Australia. How silly!

America is engaged in trying to control the world. That's why it has so many military bases and that's why it spends more than it has on armaments and endless wars.

I have a map on my blog which shows how much of the world America controls already. You really should look at it, get up to speed!

http://www.dangerouscreation.com
Posted by David G, Thursday, 15 July 2010 3:36:05 PM
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Dearest ALGOREisRICH (Third Reich) or whatever.

The diversity of my political views is a sign of the maturity and tolerance, in line with OLO's best traditions - that you manifestly lack :)

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 15 July 2010 4:11:26 PM
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The war is not Gillard's. She is constrained by all the forces around her just as her predecessors were to maintain the alliance with USA... the one that I would prefer to distance our country from asap! The USA wants to go warmongering to enrichen and empower itself throughout the world, as it has been since the second world war, and wants Australia to accompany it to lend some legitimacy to what it does. If Australia had enough self respect it would expose the hypocrites for what they are, and leave them to do their own dirty work.

Heaven help Australia if we ever call on USA to defend us (which is said to be the excuse for maintaining our American alliance). Have you noticed the mess America has left in other countries it rushed to save in living memory? Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan....
Posted by Forkes, Thursday, 15 July 2010 4:21:07 PM
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Hi all...

On this occasion I do agree with C J Morgan, and vehemently disagree with YUYUTSU.

YUYUTSU, you state inter alia, that our soldiers are 'professional', and they're fighting a 'holy war' ?

Well I was a 'professional' soldier, and there is NO WAR that's holy !
Afghanistan is just another Vietnam. Another unwinnable War. Vietnam was nothing but a bloody hell hole. Most times you couldn't even identify your enemy. Farmer working his 'paddys' by day, and a Viet Cong by night, lurking in the foothills of the Long Hi's.

I've never been to Afghanistan, but I've heard plenty about it from the likes of Mr Neil JAMES of the 'Defence Association', a very knowledgable former Army Officer. Though he still supports Australia's involvement, I do wonder exactly what level of conviction he really has ?

The combined 'might' of America and her Allies, couldn't win in Vietnam, similarily, we can't win in Afghanistan. The loss of seventeen young men is enough in this unwinnable conflict.

Sung Wu
Posted by o sung wu, Thursday, 15 July 2010 4:39:13 PM
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http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10689#176809

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10689#176824

Leigh & ALGOREisRICH, excellent work. To which i would add one alternative policy.

All the young fit "Afghan Refugees" in their late teens & early 20's, who have been emigrating here, by boat or plane should not be put into a 3 star immigration centre, but the OZ army for 6 weeks basic military training then straight back to Afghanistan for 10 years, unpaid "National Service" during which time they will be taught English & a trade or Profession, before being eligible for a visa to OZ, based on their record of service.

If they decline our kind offer of 10 years free accommodation, education, health care, etc, they are deported immediately.

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=10689#176831

Poor Dear C J Morgan, sorry to disappoint you but AGiR is quite correct, Marx did not even write his evil book, personally. It was produced for the "Illuminati" nearly a century earlier & supplied to Karl as a complete work. All he did was edit it, a little, throw in his own style of Spin/Propaganda/Dogma etc.

Totally Plagiarised, just like Red/green Principles & Policy being completely stolen from the "Australian Democrats" then given a Communist Spin to appeal to the Loony Lefties.
Posted by Formersnag, Thursday, 15 July 2010 4:48:39 PM
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It seems that my "holy" superlative was misunderstood. I used it in a sense of "pure"+"dedicated"+"unselfish", without any religious implications. Also, I attached it to the word "mission", not "war".

Comparisons to Vietnam are mere self-fulfilling superstitions, unless of course one hates the Americans even more than they hate the Taliban (a valid POV, but then be clear if this is the case).

I do not agree that this war, hard as it is, cannot be won, with the proper will accompanied by a sufficient number of troops. If however, due to the lack of will, the number of troops is insufficient, then I suggest cordoning and safeguarding just selected parts of Afghanistan, wherein the population, especially the women, can live in dignity and freedom. In that case, I would also use the military to ensure that every Afghani who so desires has a route to escape from the Taliban into those protected areas.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Thursday, 15 July 2010 5:25:35 PM
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Kellie - we've been over this before.
The bad decision was going there in the first place. Once there the real question you and the "intelligent" people of Australia need to ask is why has it taken so long to reach a resolution, and what do we have to do to reach a resolution.
To pull out now would be inexcusable. The people who would be condemned to a dreadful existence because of such heartlessness and selfishness does not bear thinking about. You must try to remember the ordinary people who will be affected.
What would be good is a discussion of the tactics the new US general will have to adopt in a conflict that is necessarily completely different from the one in Iraq.. so get busy and add value..
Posted by Curmudgeon, Thursday, 15 July 2010 5:39:41 PM
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We cannot leave Afghanistan yet.UNOCAL the oil comapny that Hamid Karzai used to consult for have not yet completed the oil pipeline from Turkmenistan throught Afghanistan,Pakistan to the Capsian Sea.Haliburtion which Dick Cheney used to be the CEO of are building the pileline.Now they reveal $ trillions of resources in Afghanistan.

There is another reason why they cannot leave.China has the manpower to totally overwhelm Afghanistan and steal the neo-cons kill.This would see the rise and rise of China as a military power also.

Where's Wally Bin Laden? No terrorist over there.None over here.You simply cannot find good terrorist help anymore.Terror,terror everywhere,too scared to question,too scared to think.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 15 July 2010 5:57:25 PM
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George Bush did the right thing in the beginning.

After it was found Al Quiada and Bin Laden were responsible for the cowardly 9/11 attacks on innocents and that their training camps were in Afghanistan, George bombed the crap out of them.

That's where it should have stayed.


Let the Taliban have their way in Afghanistan, the refugees and asylum seekers are right. Let the righteous Muslim Taliban run Afghanistan ... it deserves them ... They've had a chance at democracy and have blown it.

Let's just withdraw and then bomb the crap out of them and spray agent orange on their opium crops every few years just to remind them they might be able to kill a few westerners occassionally but we can decimate their country and their livelihood from the air as often as we want.

Their lust for drug sponsered violence and terror would soon abate ... it would be far cheaper and we wouldn't be having any state funerals for our very brave boys.
Posted by keith, Thursday, 15 July 2010 6:51:45 PM
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Keth "Their lust for drug sponsored terrorism...?"Where you been for the last 10yrs.The Taliban had stopped the production of heroine prior 911.Remember the heroine drought in 2000? When the USA took control of Afghanistan the drugs began to flow.Afghanistan now produces 90% of the world's heroine,said to be worth $65 billion pa.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 15 July 2010 8:15:57 PM
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Each generation has it's quota of those who simply cannot envisage the consequences of ostrich policy i.e. sticking your head in the sand & leaving the other end exposed to whatever happens to come along.
Posted by individual, Friday, 16 July 2010 7:50:13 AM
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Formersnag: << Marx did not even write his evil book, personally. It was produced for the "Illuminati" nearly a century earlier & supplied to Karl as a complete work. >>

You must have studied history at the same fascist kindergarten as Boazy. Hilarious.

Boazy: << gotcha >>

Always happy to point out your factual errors.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 16 July 2010 8:25:37 AM
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Kellie Tranter

It is overwhelming.

Our young people die in Afghanistan for a PM’s opinion, a PM fixated with exams and uniforms.

What exams did she pass to qualify for the job?

Shouldn’t she wear a uniform?

In my times, in Italy, I had to wear a uniform as the PM did and so did Hitler, Stalin, and Franco.
Posted by skeptic, Friday, 16 July 2010 9:54:10 AM
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REVISED VIEW - STICK WITH THE US UNTIL WE BUILD OUR OWN

On further consideration my extolation of the article was simplistic. While everyone has an opinion that can be eloquently put it carries more weight if a person has some experience of the military, military policy and the people in it. Knowing people in Afghanistan on patrol whose kids are less than three years old focuses the mind more than political point scoring.

Experience is not necessarily an absolute benefit but it helps when one has talked for many years to those prepared to fight and die for their country and perhaps for other human reasons which I won't dissemble here.

I'm frustrated that our troops are dying for primarily American reasons. However in the absence of a self reliant (meaning sufficiently armed) defence force we have nowhere to go but to rely totally on US protection from powerful nuclear armed countries.

I wish it were otherwise (we would be talking Australian nuclear weapons then) but the reality is that our dependence on the US alliance means that America's distant interests are also our interests by default. Our chosen role is as a supportive ally until we build the means for defence and foreign policy independence.

Until we have the ability to defend ourselves we will continue to waste resources and lives on protector's causes. This idea is not new of course. Different people have different ideas of Defence Rudd/Chamberlain relied on pieces of White Paper to create a peaceful zone in their time. But what counts for countries that have adequately defended their military interests, like Sweden, is security that comes from military preparedness and inventiveness - not just White Papers full of good, underfunded, intentions that avoid the nuclear future.

So the tension between the naive, idealistic generalists and the experienced, if less articulate, military realists continues. Protection is expensive but, as the slogan goes, we're worth it.

Peter Coates
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 16 July 2010 10:18:52 AM
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Following warmongering America is complete folly.

America has an economy which is built upon endless war. The American Administration and the Pentagon are built upon the bodies of millions of Americans who have died in vain as their imperial country goes around the world invading and occupying and stealing resources belonging to others.

We are indoctrinated to think that war is normal, that using military force is the way to solve problems. Look at Iraq and Afghanistan to see how well war works.

War is not normal! It is barbaric. It defies intelligence. And, one day, perhaps soon, we'll have a nuclear war and humans will become extinct.

Stop the rot! Condemn the warmongers. Isolate them. Boycott them.

Save our world from extinction.

http://dangerouscreation.com
Posted by David G, Friday, 16 July 2010 12:50:37 PM
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You know, David, humans WILL become extinct, sooner or later, it is only normal and according to the laws of physics that anything with a beginning will also have an end!

War is normal - there is sufficient evidence to indicate that war is and was prevalent between ape-tribes as well as among humans throughout the ages, especially when over-populated and resources are scarce.

The alternatives to war are: natural-disasters, starvation, plagues, or willful abstention to procreate. If anything is barbaric, it is the blind desire to bring more children into an already-overcrowded planet.

Whether our world will experience extinction is subject to a hot debate: it may either collapse, reversing the big-bang, or continue to spread forever, thinning to infinity. In both cases, humans will not be included.

Let the Americans think whatever they like to think, for even a broken watch shows the correct time twice a day. We are not going to live forever, but while we are here we deserve to live in dignity and freedom. Afghan people are not given this opportunity, so it is only noble to come out and help them.

P.S. you should have the courtesy to mention that the quoted web-site is your own and as you declared, comments in opposition to your views will not be published there.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 16 July 2010 1:40:07 PM
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Hi David G

Yes and certainly protecting our poeple from the warmongers in Russia and China (who killed millions of their own people, very rapidly, before they built their own nuclear weapons) should also be considered.

Noting also that 1944, BEFORE any nuclear weapons existed, almost certainly saw the most people killed in war in history.

While it is easy, trendy (even slogan frequenting) to say that the US is the font of all evil - the Americans constitute the bastards on our side. It is bastards on the other side revealed or potential, in the Korean and Vietnam Wars, who now have first strike nuclear weapons, who will threaten us once we "successfully" isolate ourselves from our main ally. Just imagine a trade blockade enticing better resource prices from us for our main customer's benefit. That's the likely tip of a sharp iceberg.

Threat is the main benefit of nuclear weapons and nuclear submarines - no-one needs to pull the trigger - they are that overbearingly powerful.

Basically our choices are:

- continuing alliance OR

- building our own nuclear weapons OR

- practicing the Mahatma Gandhi style of non-violence that resulted in 3 million dead in the Indo-Pakistan War, India being beaten by China in 1962 and only then "pacifist" India realising that it needed nuclear weapons to defend itself and to reduce the more-demonstrably murderous scope of coventional war.

Since Pakistan, China and India armed themselves with nuclear missiles, conventional megadeath for them has become obsolete while MAD has always prevented nuclear war.

Anyway I'm happy to argue for weeks but just cut down the (anti US only) "peace" slogans.

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 16 July 2010 2:14:00 PM
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Yuyutsu, I never said on my blog that comments which oppose my own views will not be published.

What I said was: "Comments containing attacks on me, my blog, other contributors, obscene language, and rants from fanatics and ratbags will not be published." Please take more care with your observations!

Plantagenet, from birth, humans the world over are heavily indoctrinated. It starts from birth and we are rewarded for imitation, not thinking for ourselves.

Most adults are a product of their massive indoctrination be it via religion, social morays, television, books, educational institutions, etc.

For humans to survive, we need to throw out the indoctrination (because most of it is rubbish) and start thinking for ourselves. This means questioning things like war is normal, that America should be the world's policeman, that capitalism is the best economic system, that whites are superior to blacks, that men should run everything, that religion is necessary, that might is right, that greed is good, etc.

Freed from indoctrination, humans would walk a very different path but those who run our world don't want that to happen. They're making too much money and they love the power they have.
Posted by David G, Friday, 16 July 2010 4:46:39 PM
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Hi David G

Its a true sign of new found friendship that you show concern for my intellectual development.

Have no fear I think for myself - often at a cost to my relations to authorities - in ways that I can't legally explain in public. I've also viewed the teachings of "Life of Brian" many, many, times,

You will note that I can argue several sides like the earliest on "Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 15 July 2010 12:18:08 PM" on this thread progressively before I find intellectual consistency, my truths, and answers to my values.

All this may not coincide with your sincerely held beliefs but that is the stuff of diversity and tolerance.

So I'm sticking with my Revised Post "Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 16 July 2010 10:18:52 AM" on this thread as my present position. This is now 'functional" in the word of that most dubious American philosopher and fixer - Richard M. Nixon.

Regards

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Friday, 16 July 2010 5:25:19 PM
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There are between 20 and 33 million Afghanis, of a multitude of different ethnic backgrounds. Perhaps ten per cent are working closely with the Karzai government and its regional allies, and/or with the US. As well, hundreds of thousands of girls are now going to school for the first time. Many women have ventured out to work.

If the NATO/US forces decided to withdraw, it would take some time. What do you think those 2 to 3.3 million people will plan on doing in the meantime ? Stay and wait for the Taliban ? Or join the other forty million refugees around the world ?

Of course, many won't be able to: they will be trapped, particularly the women and girls. But hey, it's not our problem, we're losing troops there, so what's a few hundred thousand foreigners, women and girls, in the scheme of things ?

And is there such a thing as al Qaida or not ? Or like the Mafia, it doesn't exist ? Oh that's right, the Mafia DOES exist, it's not just anti-Italian propaganda. So if the Taliban return to 'power' [see below*], then al Qaida would have a base again, not to mention the morale boost to the Taliban in Pakistan and the LeT in Kashmir [memo to India: for Christ's sake, hold a plebiscite in Kashmir, let Pakistan have it if the people there want it that way - that's democracy] and al-Shabab in Somalia etc.

What happens if al Qaida (which doesn't exist, it's all a CIA fabrication) has a free hand to work out of Afghanisatan ?

We'll see :)

[TBC]
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 16 July 2010 5:28:19 PM
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[cont.]

* 'power' and the Caliphate: true believers, of whatever idiocy, believe that the word of God is final, total, not to be polluted by the mundane actions of governments. There shouldn't BE governments. The word of God/Allah should rule the lives of everybody in the world, who of course should be a believer: Sharia, the literal word of the Christian God, whatever. God should rule on Earth through his/her Word. Any non-believers should be ...... removed. The struggle shall not cease until the entire world is cleansed and claimed for God/Allah. Then peace on Earth, goodwill to all believers.

So give them a hand if you wish, help it all along.

'US out ! Now !'

Meanwhile, back in the real world ......

Joe
Posted by Loudmouth, Friday, 16 July 2010 5:30:36 PM
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While many here lambast the USA for war mongering,it is not the average US citizen who benefits.It is quite the contrary.Those who are pushing for wars exist in the USA Federal Resesrve, a private group of 12 international banks that own and control the US currency.They work in conjunction with arms dealers,oil companies,chemical,big pharma,and even the drug lords in Afghanistan,South America etc.It is corruption on a massive scale.

I think that after the last G20 meeting Kevin Rudd actually got cold feet and decided to self destruct via the mining resource tax.It was a no brainer from the start.He must have known who the really big players are and that they would have never accepted such a tax and that he would be rolled.To me,Kevin wanted a way out.

Julia Gillard wants the power at any cost to us,thus again is pushing for a carbon tax.Carbon is the basis for all life,and the source of our energy.Tax carbon and you tax life itself.It will be a life of serfdom for 90% of our society.
Posted by Arjay, Friday, 16 July 2010 6:22:17 PM
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