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The Forum > Article Comments > A new vision for the Middle East > Comments

A new vision for the Middle East : Comments

By Alice Aslan, published 9/7/2010

Arabs, Jews, Muslims and all the other ethnic and religious minorities in the Middle East should co-operate to find peace.

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It is very sad that one can have the ability to speak to an audience but be so filled with bias they do not deserve to be listened to.

As unfortunate as it is - and it directly answers the writer's own question in her essay, it is very . As horrible as it is, in my experience whenever I see a middle-eastern or Asiatic name writing about this sort of area, I instantly know they are disgustingly biased.

And it is this very point why there are so many problems in the middle-east. Apart from Israel, the entire region is a basin of racism, misogyny, homophobia, and murderous hatred for those outside the clan.

That there is simply no room in the closed minds of those from such disgustingly tribal cultures to even see for a millisecond the possibility that perhaps they should analyse the other sides argument, is a scary notion. Particularly for westerners, who are so very open to arguments by opposing sides.

Yet we have leftists in the west genuinely asking why the US can have nuclear weapons, but Iran cannot. Do we let children drive cars? Of course not, and although nobody wants to say it - I will - non-western cultures are children compared to us. Their laws and values attest to this. Look how they all treat refugees for example, India shoots them on sight along the border.

Yet no outrage by leftists. Why? Because Indians are held to a lower standard because they are incredibly racist and intolerant as to live under a filthy caste system.

The ONLY Islamic writer I have seen with any sense of impartiality is Tanveer Ahmed - and he has exposed what I (growing up in Sydney's west) already knew - that it is widespread and very common - not even thought about in fact - how racist and tribal Bangladeshi's, Indians, Pakistani's, and all the other sub-continent cultures, are...
Posted by Benjam1n, Friday, 9 July 2010 11:00:40 AM
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...the sort of things he talked about was how common it was for his friends and family to laugh at Australia's generosity as stupid - welfare, Medicare, and so on, and worse, how western women are uncovered whores.

It is this sort of tribalism that leads to the problems in the middle-east. Think about it.

Australians and other westerners tribalism extends to sport, but its not even that bad. But in the mid-east, Shia's get blown up by Sunni's, they both hate the Sufi's, and don't even talk about ethnicity.

Arabs look at Asian Muslims as trash, as evidenced by the way they treat their workers from SE Asia.

When they go to Mecca for the pilgrimage, they are all put up in hotels according to ethnicity, as there are just too many fights.

So, we get lectures on racism when we have institutions designed to promote diversity, gender equality, and we teach all through school and in the home that women and men are equals, that colour is irrelevant (Australians, like all western cultures, have high rates of inter-ethnic marriage - the lowest are the tribal Arabs and Japanese (who are extremely racist - just ask a South Korean).

And when I say racism, in Australia all one gets is a comment in the street from an idiot. We have laws against it, our people frown upon those who commit it, and people in power who do are removed from office.

In the non-west, racism is INSTITUTIONAL, that is, its official. There are laws restricting Christians for example from obtaining officer status in the Iranian military, and in Saudi Arabia being a Christian is punishable by death.

We all know about their backward scummy laws against women, who are considered chattel in the third world.

The article, and the writer, are a joke. Come back when you've learnt about liberalism. And what will astonish her the most, is that although I disagree with her entirely, she needs to have the microphone more, not less.
Posted by Benjam1n, Friday, 9 July 2010 11:04:10 AM
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Alice knows she would have next to no voice in Islamic nations so sees a need to criticize the parts of the world that has given her free speech. freedom to critcize and freedom to spread her dogmas about the US. How about telling us what good things the US has done for you instead of venting your bias. Before you can build bridges which she advocates I suggest a balanced view of history be presented. Without that we just get another left wing set of worn out dogmas.
Posted by runner, Friday, 9 July 2010 11:18:11 AM
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Cue the US apologists...
If Iran is a messed up theocracy it is mainly because the US made it that way. Funny how nations with oil supplies are "threats" while poor countries with tyrants are potential allies, or ignored altogether.
And selling drugs to finance wars is OK is it?
And global kidnap and torture is OK too is it?
It's all very well to blame the "primitive" cultures, but you miss the author's point: The US policy of lawlessness through illegal terror empowers extremism at the expense of balanced discourse. After a few family deaths due to state murder I guarantee you too would "get primitive" and embrace violence.
I have no love for extreme Muslim views, but I see them as no worse than extreme Christian or even extreme Buddhist views.
The point is that bombing anyone back to the stone age will bring the extremists out, mainly because civilisation fails utterly under the circumstances that the US has deliberately created as a matter of military and economic policy.
Say the US was regularly bombed, and suspicion was pointed at Muslims. Can you honestly say that Christians in the US wouldn't resort to uber-violence? (KKK manages it without provocation.)
Treating people like animals, then saying they deserve it because they react badly is an old school-yard tactic...sadly folks believe the US spin that "they envy our way of life" or their culture is inherently evil rather than admit that they too would get angry if they were treated with such injustice by such a hypocritical bully state. The fact that Australia supports the US and Israel without qualification is a disgrace.
Posted by Ozandy, Friday, 9 July 2010 11:47:15 AM
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Alice Aslan is the author of "ISLAMOPHOBIA IN AUSTRALIA"

See: http://www.islamophobia.com.au/

The introductory blurb says:

"Islamophobia is a contemporary form of racism against Muslims…"

Sigh.

Another attempt to conflate racism with dislike, even loathing, for a belief system.

Are some attacks on Islam motivated by racism?

Yes.

Just as some attacks on Israel are motivated by hatred for Jews.

Does that mean that either Islam or Israel should be protected from critique, analysis, satire and scorn?

MESSAGE TO ALICE.

In a democracy ANY belief system, ANY ideology, including but not restricted to agnosticism, atheism, Buddhism, capitalism, Christianity, Fascism, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Marxism, Nazism, scientology, socialism, Zionism and Zoroastrianism is a LEGITIMATE target for critique, analysis, satire and SCORN.

The critic is under no compulsion to consider the feelings of the true believers or to play by imposed rules of "fairness" and "balance." (Usually such rules are designed to be the opposite of fair and balanced)

Labelling a belief system or ideology a "religion" does not confer any special protection.

There is no such thing as a race of Muslims anymore that there is a race of Christians or Liberal party supporters; therefore a loathing for Islam is NOT "racism" in any shape, manner or form.

In Australia nobody is compelled to be a Muslim or to follow any other religion. Adults are free to choose their religious beliefs. You choose to be a Muslim in the same sense that you choose to vote for a particular political party.

Deal with it and stop trying to peddle the idea of a loathing for Islam as "racism".

A loathing for Islam is not "racism."
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 9 July 2010 1:14:13 PM
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Unfortunately the happiness of fifty or sixty years living in peace with one's neighbours weighs up very poorly against the eternity of torture in hell which will inevitably result from it after death. Once again, the culprit is irrational beliefs, and specifically religious beliefs; and only when these become as attenuated in the Middle East as they are in most of the West can we expect the nations there to attain the same degree of long-term peace.
Posted by Jon J, Friday, 9 July 2010 2:38:28 PM
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Wonderful idea Alice. Why don't you go back to the middle east, be the change you want to see & take all the other Muslim immigrants with you.

It would do wonders for our crime rate.

Having experienced what it is like to live in a peaceful, western, capitalist democracy, maybe you can teach the neanderthals, how to be good little communists?

While you are at it take all members of the Red/green/getup/labour coalition with you.
Posted by Formersnag, Friday, 9 July 2010 3:40:47 PM
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Wow formersnag, what a nice fellow you are! Take your tablets, crawl back under your rock, or do whatever else you need to do. Fancy lecturing others about being peaceful, or calling someone a neanderthal with an ugly attitude like yours.
Posted by JBSH, Friday, 9 July 2010 5:25:09 PM
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The author comments: "Nations with strong civil societies can much better negotiate their rights against an imperial power, and make better use of their own natural resources for the common good."

Their own natural resources are already overstretched. It is a tough ask of the “Promised Land” to provide an adequate lifestyle for the 22 million people jostled together in and around it. More alarming, at present rate of population increase, the number will increase to 26 million by 2020. Neighbour Syria (22 million people and doubling in a generation or so) also has access to the river.
Not only a Jesus will be able to walk dry-footed across the Jordan River in the near future; and water is but one of the resources which are already scarce, and diminishing.
Israel, at present rate of increase, will double its population in one and a half generations; Jordan (presently of similar numbers) doubling in about one.

The place is one of warring tribes; Jewish, Christian, Islamic. With fundamentalists having an excess of power in each and all of them, the prospects there for the rise of strong civil societies in the face of scarce, and diminishing, resources are grim
Posted by colinsett, Friday, 9 July 2010 5:34:20 PM
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Alice...(in wonderland).....

The Serbs and Croats and Bosnians allll got along great with their neighbours...until Bosnia wanted independance...*oops* we all know how that turned out...don't we.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 9 July 2010 9:23:26 PM
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OZLAN,

Yes, I know about Iran - I detest Jimi Carter because he decided that rather than help the Shah - who was brutal for sure - he'd stop funding him.

And what happened....Iran got worse leaders.

I used to be like you. No, don't take that as something negative, I mean it. I used to be anti-US, anti-western, that we were imperialists, and so on.

But after studying history and philosophy and politics (and law although that didn't help the same way, looking at the laws of such countries show you what sort of values they have, i.e. we have anti-discrimination laws, and they have things like (in Iran I mean) stoning for adultery based on male testimonies. Now....I do know that these countries are actually all signatories to the UN conventions on human rights, that is, the Saudi's, well, basically all non-western cultures. Point is, they sign it, yet ignore it. So yes, I know some laws on books don't mean much in the real world - I think Australia even has blasphemy laws still somewhere in the Crimes Act, which was written in 1900).

My main point is that I NOW understand why it is the US armed a tyrant like Saddam Hussein to the teeth in the 1980's, in his war with Iran.

Why should we meddle at all?

Because two reasons - don't believe it if you want but there is truth to the claim that the US & Britain are champions of human rights. Think about slavery....they stopped it themselves. They did not need to be forced to stop it like they forced the Spanish and Portugese (who were heaps worse. Incidentally, the Arabs were by far the worst, with about 80% of all slavery markets run by them - makes sense, they share a land bridge with Africa).

Second reason, open markets. West Germany opened markets after WWII, East Germany closed them. How many jumped from the west into the east over the wall? And also North and South Korea another good example.
Posted by Benjam1n, Saturday, 10 July 2010 8:54:08 AM
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JBSH,

I see your point about the anger, but people are angry.

It is hypocritical for a person who would have little or no rights in her tribal, racist homeland (or land of parents origin) to lecture the west - the only cultures who are liberal and tolerant - about how it should take MORE people from cultures ores that CLEARLY do not work.

What is wrong with saying that? What we have in the west, of individualism, of real choice, of being able to spurn the beliefs of your parents without being killed, of having a homosexual relationship, of criticising the government, is unique to the western world.

And the problem is we have invited all these people from cultures and religions that really have no time for liberalism or individuality, but only for group rights - that is, they only care about their own kind. We see it in Alice writing about middle-eastern issues. We saw it openly when Chinese-Australians living in Bennelong openly, and astonishingly without shame, admitted they were voting for Rudd BECAUSE he spoke Chinese.

Those like Alice, with her identity issues - it would be very difficult coming from any non-western culture to overcome one's tribalism - but then again, Hirsi Ali did it, so she should be able to as well - find it very hard to take the side of someone who looks different to herself.

There is a kinship with those who are of the same ethnicity. It's truly bizarre. I mean, I don't vote for a leader because they are Anglo, or from the same state as me. In the US, we had over 90% of blacks ADMIT they voted Obama because he was black. Here, we saw Muslims taking the side of Sheik Hilali after his 'cat meat' sermon, even though such comments were sickening.

Cultural genocide, nothing short of that will work for the illiberal hordes in the middle-east. We have led by example on human rights and they do not follow because they are so extremely tribal.

Liberalism cannot coexist with totalitarian cultural value systems.
Posted by Benjam1n, Saturday, 10 July 2010 9:26:20 AM
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"It is very sad that one can have the ability to speak to an audience but be so filled with bias they do not deserve to be listened to" claims Benjam1n. Benjam1n who, Netanyahu? If ever I've read a case of pot calling kettle black, it is that sort of rubbish that Benjam1n has written in this thread and earlier elsewhere in this forum. His pro-Zionist support is unmistakable.

Contrast Benjam1n's rants with the original more comprehensive and accurate (in my opinion) original article from Alice Aslan. Alice correctly mentions the USA as being the leader in spreading lawlessness throughout the world not only in relation to Israel, but for decades. The USA was instrumental in getting the UN to establish Israel in a place where the vast majority of inhabitants of the region did not want it. It has financed and supported that belligerant, racist little nuclear armed country for over 60 years now to the extent of hundreds of billions of dollars a year, thereby enabling Israel to become one of the greatest existing threats to world peace. Also one of the sneakiest, sending its undercover agents on assassination missions around the world equipped with forged foreign passports, and lobbying other countries to hassle Iran over concocted nuclear scares for no other reason than Israel sees Iran as a threat to itself (Israel).

So why does Alice Aslan raise the subject of "A new vision for the Middle East" at this time? Presumably because of the news that Obama USA and Netanyahu Israel are reported to be discussing reopening peace talks with Palestinians. What a farce! It should be obvious to all that Israel has little incentive to offer any just settlement to Palestinians whilst it can easily keep them in subjection with the help of their unshakable friends in the USA. And Australia!
Posted by Forkes, Saturday, 10 July 2010 10:51:45 AM
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Benjamin1n

"Apart from Israel, the entire region is a basin of racism,misogyny,homophobia and murderous hatred for those outside the clan" Apart from Israel? LOL. You're obviously a talented satirist.

Israel has an overwhelming military advantage over the Palestinians, and usually receives uncritical American support, why should the Zionists seek peace? Violence has been very effective so far. As the author indicated, Israel is the last colonial enterprise of the West.
Posted by mac, Saturday, 10 July 2010 4:10:20 PM
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Well, Alice's vision is essentially based on some inaccurate information. You in your comments have demonstrated that too.

Let me say that, neither of you are unbiased. You talked about the Middle East so pathetically!.
Here we see what you wrote "the entire region is a basin of racism, misogyny, homophobia, and murderous hatred for those outside the clan."

First of all, this sharp statement is an obvious generalization. And this attitude certainly proves one of two things; You are biased, or you do not know what is going on in that region!.

Now, What do you mean by (Clan)?.
I agree with you in one thing that is totally disgraced and rejected in that region which is Homosexual relationships.
Yet, the other accusations are simply not true.
Racism as a conception known in western culture is rarely applied in that region. Have a look inside four countries which have the biggest economies in that area; Saudi Arabia, UAE, Kuwait and Bahrain. You will be stunned by the diversity and multicoloured in everywhere over there. Even Saudi Arabia has been a great spot for foreign workers. More than 7 millions among the total 24 millions are foreigners. Does that assert your claim, Saudi Arabia and the others countries are basin of racism?. To add more, there is a priority for having Asian workers in Saudi Arabia. That definitely stands against your allegations.
Secondly, you claimed that, women are oppressed in this region. Here you have to give evidence, not news from Western sources. However, Women in Saudi Arabia (Where I know well) are treated very well. They virtually live as they want to. Do not mix between the teachings of Islam (Islamic practice) and their rights. You must understand the core of the problem before you go through.
I’ll give an example of how women are equally treated with men in Saudi Arabia, Women have the right for work, for running their own business to go school, university, even taking a big position in the government such as a minister, she is now having a great position in Education.
Posted by Fletcher, Sunday, 11 July 2010 12:03:43 AM
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The wage that women earn is exactly the same as their male counterparts. Do you have like this in Australia!
There are a lot of misconceptions that Australian people have towards Islam and Arabs. Media honestly does not reflect how the life there is. I hope you look more objectively in order to analyze or even to say a word about the reality in the Middle East. I am as Middle Easter expressing my surprising how news and some writers are misleading the real events and misinterpreting the values and practices over there.
Regards
Posted by Fletcher, Sunday, 11 July 2010 12:04:57 AM
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Sorry, I probably misunderstood Alice Aslan, in my response I meant (Benjam1n) the man who made the comment, Alice does not relate to the topic, I am sorry again.
Posted by Fletcher, Sunday, 11 July 2010 12:44:08 AM
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I'd like 2 c *Bibi the Yahoo* have another go at a prisoner exchange. More of a package deal to my way of thinking actually. I think I'd wake up 100 Pali's at the local Monkey House at 4:00AM for a wash, best glad rags for 4:30AM prayer with an Israeli Arab Imam, then "shackle" em up and march em out for picnic breaky within "COO - EE!" of the Gaza border.

..

And let everyone have a good look at them. A bit of cross border chit chat perhaps.

..

And put it on the speaker phones - "These people all go free PLUS (LOTS MORE) and some extra juicy bits in the deal for the Holy month to come, IF you set *Gilad* free."

Otherwise, back to the monkey house.

..

Seriously, even though 1000+ : 1 seems a lot, what is the value of a Human Life? Of course, in the manner of our respective considered responses, we add definition to our Selves.

Thereafter, 2 things. Obviously some of those in the Israeli monkey house are hard core, and if released represent a real future threat to the lives of other Israelis, but on that point, my view is that the majority of Yahudis know this so let them decide, by way of say an indicative on line plebiscite, or something similar.

Secondly, I think the Israelis have bigger concerns than emptying their prisons if it comes to it. .. People are always telling me things that I don't really want to know. Recently,1 friend starts telling me stories about Indonesians who allegedly went to fight the Yahudis in the Gaza conflict of not so long ago, claiming that Israel remains a not so difficult target to infiltrate, and predicting a near future campaign of renewed terror.

Well .. what does one say?

"Here, have a glass of wine mate!"
Posted by DreamOn, Sunday, 11 July 2010 6:23:18 PM
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Mac....'clan'... 'us' 'them' are all realities.

It boils down to perceived personal, clan, tribal, national interest.

Feel free to criticize Israel..but your reference to their superior firepower should also persuade you of the stupidity of messing with them.

"Does not a king with 5000 first consider the 10,000 against him?"

Unfortunately, Arab/Muslim/Druze/Bedoin tribalism does not leave a lot of room for 'consideration' of anything other than clan interest...

That's life... and such views have predictable consequences.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Monday, 12 July 2010 5:02:08 AM
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Anyone who doesn't subscribe to Political Correctness knows what the problem is in the Middle East. I think the problem is religion. The Jews and Christians want to be left alone, the Muslims want Jihad. All this talk of peace talks between Palestinians and Israelis, how can it work? The Hamas charter calls for a Jewish genocide, how can you talk peace with an attitude like that? The Muslims want world conquest, the Jihad was revived once we gave them the tools to do so, mainly money and weapons for oil. Essentially what you have there are competing ideologies, Judaism and Islamism. History tells us the Jews mostly kept to themselves, however muslims went out in all directions waging war and converting by force. The fact is nowhere on this planet was Islam accepted through logic and reason, even the Arabs were conquered. Once we accept this reality we would all be better prepared to deal with middle east.
Posted by Bigos, Thursday, 15 July 2010 10:12:18 PM
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Message to the witless:

"Those who study jihad will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world.
All the countries conquered by Islam or to be conquered in the future will be marked for everlasting salvation.
For they shall live under Allah's law (Sharia)...
Islam says: 'Kill [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter their armies.'
Islam says: 'Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword!
People cannot be made obedient except with the sword!
The sword is the key to paradise, which can be opened only for holy warriors (jihadists)!'
There are hundreds of other Koranic psalms and hadiths (sayings of the prophet) urging Muslims to value war and to fight.
Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war?
I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim...
Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war.
Those [who say this] are witless."

Ayatollah Khomeini, 1942 (Islam Is Not a Religion of Pacifists)
Posted by MohammedKharr, Saturday, 17 July 2010 2:56:11 PM
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Repeating, for the witless:

"...Islam wants to conquer the whole world.

Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war.

I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim...

Those [who think they know more about Islam than Ayatollah Khomeini] are witless."
Posted by MohammedKharr, Saturday, 17 July 2010 3:04:00 PM
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It seems we have a new "Red Neck" here. Sounds a lot like *Proxy*

..

I watched *Jim Middelton* on Asia Pacific focus earlier today. He was quizzing an expert regarding the issue of Indonesian Muslims arriving at extremist Islamic schools in Yemen.

The expert went on to explain how this was common place and had been for a very long time noting that the Yemenis were the ones who brought Islam to Indonesia in the first place.

..

I found it interesting from the perspective that more people are starting to appreciate the interconnectedness of the extended family of Islam.
Posted by DreamOn, Sunday, 18 July 2010 9:14:25 PM
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