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The Forum > Article Comments > Flotilla sailed for confrontation, not for aid > Comments

Flotilla sailed for confrontation, not for aid : Comments

By Bren Carlill, published 3/6/2010

Israeli soldiers simply defended themselves and their country.

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Yes they were armed with Guns, night vision and helicopters. Oh wait that was the brave defenders of the holylands.

What did the nasty Turks flotila come armed with medical supplies.
Posted by Kenny, Thursday, 3 June 2010 9:33:20 AM
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Yes, Kenny. Apparently they had shovels, kitchen knives and poles too. It was clearly an armed confrontation they had in mind.

The blockade needs to end. Israel must stop contravening international law by punishing an entire population for the actions of the few.

These peace activists are heroes for human rights and deserve our support and admiration, rather than hateful and ignorant censure.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 3 June 2010 9:42:50 AM
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Just a few quick points.
Hamas is a legally elected government. Israel just doesn't like it. A bit like it's main sponsor really; if it doen't like the outcome of a foreign election, the elected government is a terrorist organisation.
Israel is entitled to board a vessel if it is deemed to be hostile, in it's own waters. An armed boarding on the open seas is usually deemed to be piracy.
It is beyond belief that the Israeli government blames the occupants of the vessel for their own deaths and injuries. If I were on a ship on the open seas and was forcibly boarded by armed personnel, I also would certainly resist violently.
Israel must make up it's mind if it is occupying Gaza, or not.
Posted by ianbrum, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:19:18 AM
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Kenny... when a blockade is in place fore legitimate reasons of self defense and national security (start counting....now.. 1,2,3 ...8000-they are the Kassam rockets fired at Israel) from a territory 'governed' by a dirty band of fascist brigand thugs and terrorists who have in their charter "Israel will exist and continue to exist until [Religion_which_cannot_be_named] destroys it"...

So... you go figure.. next time a mob of terrorist thug mafia sympathizers decide to 'test your perimeter' and then take to your police action with iron bars and clubs and (reportedly) at least one firearm.. u do what any police action would do..specially when there are hundreds of the mafia attacking you.. blow their brains out.

Kenny you know as well as I do...that this was a deliberate provocation designed to draw in the gaggle of loony marxists & leftists around the globe like already here.. to 'innocently' believe this was about 'humanitarian aid'...hand on heart mind you... utter rubbish.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:21:24 AM
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Yet another deranged outburst from AlGore. Take your medication, Al, and give us all a break!

The article itself is an exercise in stupidity. Who would willingly sail into a confrontation with the Israelis who are known across the world for their military brutality and love of killing.

Keep in mind there were women and children among the activists as well, hardly a sign they wanted a fight.
Posted by David G, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:28:03 AM
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When the journalists and others get home we might get a clearer picture but boarding boats in international waters has some strict rules, especially relating to piracy.

I am shocked that there were 3 Australians in the Israeli army that boarded the boat.

I feel very uncomfortable that people with dual citizenship are able to join armed forces.

Alliegence must be clear, either you are Australian or Israeli or British or American etc. If someone with dual citizenship wants to join the army of either Australia or their second country, I believe they should have to relinquish citizenship in the country who they are not signing up to defend.

When a person signs up for the armed forces, and perhaps even public service, they should not owe allegiance to another country. When an Australian with dual citizenship with another country joins their armed forces, I think that thier Australian citizenship should be cancelled
Posted by Aka, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:45:02 AM
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"Israel has frequently stated that when Hamas agrees to live in peace with Israel, peaceful relations will ensue"

Well, yes. Isn't this always true? If the Poles had "agreed to live in peace with Germany" (ie, acquiesced in German occupation of their country), the second world war would no doubt not have started

"Israel enforces a maritime blockade because Hamas has previously shipped in weapons"

I take it then, that weapons being shipped into Israel is something that has never happened ??

The fundamental point is that Israel's control and blockade of Gaza are not legitimate, and resistance to them (though not necessarily all the tactics used in that resistance) is legitimate.
Posted by jeremy, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:53:14 AM
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Look Israel is never wrong...umm.

The author attempts to feed off UN legitimacy even when the UN flatly opposes attacks by armed forces on civilian vessels in international waters.

This issue unites all concerned about the latest violence from this western rogue state.

A NEW issue to anticipate has been summarised by the right thinking RTT News, June 2, 2010:

"Wednesday, a ship carrying aid supplies and scores of pro-Palestine activists headed towards Gaza, despite the deadly Israeli raid on a flotilla of aid ships which left at least nine activists dead just a couple of days ago.

MV Rachel Corrie, named after an American activist killed in Gaza several years ago, is currently sailing towards Gaza to deliver its consignment of humanitarian aid, and is expected to reach its destination late Friday or early Saturday.

...MV Rachel Corrie is reportedly carrying a cargo of 550 tons of cement, educational materials, toys and medical equipment to be delivered in Gaza by breaking an ongoing Israeli blockade of the Palestinian territory." http://www.rttnews.com/Content/MarketSensitiveNews.aspx?Id=1323064&SM=1

So watch out for a likely Israeli attack on MV Rachel Corrie in the near future.

The ship has been so named in remembrance of the American woman who was run over by an Israeli armoured bulldozer.

This is the speech Rachel wrote in the 5th Grade http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UK8Z3i3aTq4

Speaks louder than Israel's latest vain appeals to legality.
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:54:43 AM
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It is obvious that the main intention was to trap the Israelis into a conflict. The Islamists Turks are itching for a war with the Jews.

For humanitarian reasons the Jews should restore to the Palestinians their homeland and end all blockade.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,698033,00.html

The FT of Germany reported:

"The pro-Palestinian activists on board were aware of the Israeli dilemma. Indeed, that is one reason they insisted that they could not be stopped. Not to question the humanitarian aims of some of those on board, but they must have known with whom they had cast their lot. Among those on board were leading radical Muslims with ties to Hamas ... which makes it even less understandable that German parliamentarians from the Left Party were on board."
Posted by Philip Tang, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:00:48 AM
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This is my controlled email to President Obama today.....

The expectations of the American people and the world as well on your election to this position have been somewhat shattered, not by the GFC, or the oil in the Gulf but by your total inaction in relation to the Palestinians. This also includes the reigning in of the Israeli influence which seems to be the dictate under which you and your administration operate.
You have now by such inaction shown the world in clear terms that you are a captive of Israel and every day we see that in some way. Unless you are able to shake off the bonds that tie you to these evil people your country will begin the decline which ultimately becomes the fate of all Empires, erosion from within.
Little effort would be required by a man in your position to bring justice to a whole people, the Palestinians, who have not angered the world, have not taken up arms against countries in the region and who for over 60 years have laboured under the selfish arrogance of a nation whose berserk actions this week indicate that they are out of control.
You are surrounded by the influences that do not have the American people in their thoughts but the promotion of Zionism that is counter to developing a healthy country. Such influences have no interest in the welfare of the people in the middle east.
Perhaps it is already too late to make a change. One could get this feeling by your lack of criticism of Israel this week.

End

May I just add one thing about dual passport, mentioned above.
Obama has an ex member of the hated Israel Defence Force as his Chief of Staff; an avowed Zionist Biden as his Vice president; an avowed Jewish supporter and fellow-traveller Clinton, an absolute disgace, as Secretary of State. More than 70% of the US Congress have had fully paid trips to Israel, election support and on. Corruption? It is a daily occurence
What chance a fair deal for Palestine? None.
Posted by rexw, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:01:53 AM
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Zionists are receiving justifiable criticism because of an irrefutable fact-Israel's long term oppression of the Palestinians.Those supporters of Israel who seem to think that the reason Israel stinks is only due to superior Palestinian propaganda need to take a course in ethics.
Posted by mac, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:13:09 AM
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And it is said there is no Israeli Cheer squad, apologists attempting to spin PR. This article disproves that.

Israel is a reality it exists. However,Israel considers its self as a law unto its self and justifies the unconscionably disproportionate acts on spurious grounds.

My question is why are these apologists trying so hard to involve us?
Isn't it enough that many Jews in Australia send copious amounts of money to fund their misbegotten activities.

My comment to the author personally is on of geography, this is Australia and yes we have *our own* problems/hypocrisies we don't need to import your's thank you.
Posted by examinator, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:17:38 AM
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The flotilla actually sailed to aid Palestinians AND to confront the atrocious blockade imposed by the rogue Israeli state. So what? Why shouldn't decent people everywhere confront the rogue Israeli state?

What Zionists and their supporters like Bren Carlill refuse to admit is that Israel was never wanted in the place where it now exists. Creating it there was a huge mistake. It does not belong there. It's very presence has provoked ongoing wars and disputes for over 60 years. It is already justifiably hated by most of its neighbours and many others around the world, a hatred that is strengthened every time Israel employs its bullyboy tactics. No amount of legalistic argument from Carlill and his ilk will change that. They should all pull their heads in and behave like civilized, reasonable, likable human beings for a while if they ever hope to overcome the hatred felt against them.
Posted by Forkes, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:17:43 AM
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I can't say I agree with much of what Hamas stands for (a theocratic regime of any sort is problematic for me) but that doesn't stop me from seeing that this sort of tactic on the Israeli's part is extremely idiotic. Every aid ship that's attacked will only make it worse. If you don't agree, do some research on how the British lost India. Very few British subjects lost their lives. The casualties were mostly on the Indian side.

Israel for a long time has had the massive sympathy factor of the Holocaust on its side. That fact has been played to the extent of making it tantamount to Holocaust denial to criticise anything Israel does. Unfortunately, that effect, as with any scenario that disallows fair criticism, has allowed very stupid behaviour to be tolerated. The Economist dubbed current Israeli PM Netanyahu a "serial bungler" in 1997, and sees no reason to change that description: http://magic.economist.com/node/15720376
Posted by PhilipM, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:25:35 AM
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Kenny, C J Morgan, ianbrum, David G, Aka, jeremy, plantagenet, Please loony, lefties, do continue to display your Un Australian attitudes.

After 2010, NEVER AGAIN, TA will be PM & the senate will not be controlled by the red/greens. There will be, 5 or 6 decades too late but better late than never, a senate committee on Un Australian activities.

I propose giving the Maoists what they have been wanting all along a "cultural revolution".

Enjoy your freedom while it lasts, "Baxter" "Rehabilitation Resource" awaits you.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

http://www.cruelhoax.ca/#top

http://www.heineraffair.info/

http://www.themonthly.com.au/monthly-essays-louis-nowra-exclusive-germaine-greer-and-female-eunuch-2309
Posted by Formersnag, Thursday, 3 June 2010 11:25:51 AM
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The writer stated, "But the essence of the story is simple: some very cynical people manipulated some very naïve people into an armed attack against soldiers..."
"Naive people"? Give me a break.
Posted by Joe in the U.S., Thursday, 3 June 2010 12:31:45 PM
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Formersnag, thanks for sharing with us yet again your "moderate and mainstream" political views. But what do any of the links you posted have to with the topic under discussion?
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 3 June 2010 1:04:04 PM
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Let's wait and hear the eyewitness reports from all those on board.Put them under oath and get the truth.

I know we cannot trust Israel but there will be some on this flotilla who also will guild the lilly.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 3 June 2010 1:09:21 PM
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The author is correct. The whole thing was organised by Turkey and an Islamic 'charity'. Only the usual idiots have fallen for the Islamic terrorists' ploy. Any 'essential aid and food' could have been landed in Egypt or Israel, then moved to Palestine overland. We couldn't, of course, expect the usual Leftist deadbeats who dominate the couple of dozen comments anything attracts on OLO to know that.
Posted by Leigh, Thursday, 3 June 2010 2:12:28 PM
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Bren Carlill makes multiple clear and definite statements about what occurred when the Israeli soldiers boarded the flotilla. But he gives no evidence that he was in a position to observe what occurred.

He makes the statement that "five of the six ships were captured without violence". This statement is contradicted by the evidence that Kate Geraghty, who was on one those five ships, was "Tasered" by the Israelis.

It does little for Bren Carlill's credibility, the credibility of his other statements about what occurred, and therefore his defence of the Israeli soldiers, that at least one of his clear and definite statements is false.
Posted by Ray Polglaze, Thursday, 3 June 2010 2:23:10 PM
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Welcome back Leigh. You really are a breath of fresh air on most topics. Now that the climate change hoax has been uncovered these socialist need another outlet for their violence. This time they met a nation that won't put its citizens at any more risk than necessary. Maybe Japan could learn a bit from them.
Posted by runner, Thursday, 3 June 2010 2:26:10 PM
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Arjay,

I do not think there will be a problem in honest explanations from the people who were on the boats.

The Journalist and Photographer are both from the SMH, not The Australian so the truth will be there.
Just wait to get a weekend of spin from Greg Sheridan, Jewish mouthpiece whose column is probably being written by the Melbourne Jewish establishment right now or possibly even Murdoch has put pen to paper just for the occasion. It will be creative and full of Israeli lies.

As for the original heading, 'confrontation and not aid' ...perhaps the writer should keep up to date on his news sources, no doubt from inside Israel as the Weekend Australian doesn't get printed until tomorrow. Israel, in front of the cameras of the world are currently unloading the aid right this very minute.
Of course, if one listened to that argument from that person, he would probably view it asonly being on the boats as 'ballast', not aid.
If so, Israelis are now unloading all the hundreds of tons of 'ballast' of buildings and medical supplies.
What a cynic he must be.
Posted by rexw, Thursday, 3 June 2010 2:30:53 PM
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While we are giving the Jews a flogging (and quite rightly so) for their ghetoization of the Palestinians let us consider the humanitarian support they are receiving from their Muslim brothers and sisters. Arab governments marginalize Palestinians and deprive them of basic political and economic rights. They trap them in the camps, bereft of realistic prospects, but heavily armed.

Some 250,000 Palestinians were chased out of Kuwait and other Gulf States to punish the Palestinian political leadership for supporting Saddam Hussein. Tens of thousands of Palestinian residents of Iraq were similarly dispossessed after the second Gulf war.
In 2001, Palestinians in Lebanon were stripped of the right to own property or to pass on the property that they already owned to their children – and banned from working as doctors, lawyers, pharmacists or in 20 other professions.

Even the Palestinian refugee community in Jordan, historically the most welcoming Arab state, has reason to feel insecure in the face of official threats to revoke their citizenship. The systematic refusal of Arab governments to grant basic human rights to Palestinians who are born and die in their countries – combined with periodic mass expulsions of entire Palestinian communities – recalls the treatment of Jews in medieval Europe.

It seems that Palestinians like the Jews have no friends in the Middle East. Could the answer to this hostility be that the Jews and the Palestinians make crappy neighbours?
Posted by sonofgloin, Thursday, 3 June 2010 2:48:03 PM
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sonofgloin: << While we are giving the Jews a flogging (and quite rightly so) >>

I don't think anybody should be "giving the Jews a flogging". That just feeds into the Antisemitism by which Israel always seeks to justify its militaristic excesses.

We should, however, quite rightly be subjecting to intense scrutiny and condemnation those Zionist Israelis and their supporters who are responsible for human rights abuses, disregard for international law and wanton murder.

There are many Jews and Israelis who actively oppose these actions of the military government of Israel, and it does them a grave disservice to tar them all with the same brush.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Thursday, 3 June 2010 3:15:01 PM
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While a confrontation with Israel was a likely outcome it does not mean that that is what the protesters wanted. It was Israel that decided to send the soldiers with their guns. Without Israels interference there would have been no violence. The siege of Gaza is illegal. Boarding ships in international waters is illegal. Conquest and settlement of other peoples land is illegal. Israel does not have a leg to stand on.

Where do I sign up for the next flotilla.
Posted by mikk, Thursday, 3 June 2010 3:17:03 PM
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Formersnag

Me a "loony lefty"?

You're obviously new around OLO.

I see Israel as Australia's best hope in assisting with a nuclear weapon's capability - see my post here: http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2010/05/nuclear-weapons-for-australia-ongoing.html

One of my favourite singers is Israel's Shiri Maimon. Not only is she hot but she sings a haunting song known as the Israeli National Anthem, "Hatikva", see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ian_NCV4aCM&feature=player_embedded

The fact that Israel has long been a rogue state that disgraces its heritage is deplorable.

Hopefully there will be some Israelis left (leftwing or otherwise) to come to Australia once their country has destroyed the Middle East.

Pete
Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 3 June 2010 3:58:45 PM
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Israel was, to surrounding nations from the day it was first formed in the 14c bc, a 'rogue state'.

But that does not make it so.

Israel was called to a task... that was to convey the blessing of Salvation to the world... even from it's days as a tribal society.

All the Prophets.. law of Moses and the Psalms testify to this.

Trying to understand Israel in faithless marxist secular terms is utterly impossible.

If you do, your history points will all be incorect, your perception of events will be skewed and you will ultimately find yourself on 'the outer' of the Divine Providence which guides the world.

It is impossible to understand the 'flotilla' apart from these inputs.

-Hagar/Ishmael vs Sarah/Isaac (and the associated covenant)

-Marxism and Marxist utilization of the Palestinian issue for their own political purposes)

-Global Governance conpiracy. (loose, but real)

Any attempt outside of those basics will be spurious.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Thursday, 3 June 2010 4:49:03 PM
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Blaming the organisers of the flotilla
for causing deaths is inadequate.
Israeli soldiers fully armed with
live ammunition boarded a vessel in
international waters. That is an
act of piracy and controvenes international
maritime law.
Decisions taken by the Israeli government
and the military must be probed. The
responsibility rests with the government.
A national inquiry into this incident needs
to be done as soon as possible.
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 3 June 2010 4:51:16 PM
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I cannot believe these morons took children with them as has been reported by an earlier post. Their willingness to sacrifice children in the hope of demonising Israel is mind blowing to say the least.

Nor can I believe that people cannot see it was an activist media event complete with reporters and camera operators all designed to make the Israelis look like villains.

A "peace" flotilla, armed with metal poles and a willingness to sacrifice the wellbeing of children. Simply Disgraceful.
Posted by Atman, Thursday, 3 June 2010 6:56:40 PM
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Foxy.It needs to be an international enquiry.The USA is in the pocket of Israel.Israel has form in getting up to some really devious and treacherous activities.They are slowly murdering the Palestinians.This fact is conviently ignored by our pollies and the media.

Alan Jones digusts me in his support of Israel.Not one word of criticism.This is not about the Jewish race.Ordinary folk would have not have a clue how devious their Govt is.This is about Israeli facism.Hitler apparently was a good example to the rulers in current Israel and the USA.

Israel is now feeling cornered since some really nasty facts are coming to the fore pertaining to their past evil doings.With over 200 illegal nukes,this makes them the greatest threat to world peace on the planet.

All countries must now confront both Israel and the USA about the illegal invasion of Iraq,Afghanistan,Pakistan and now the potential of Iran.It is all about imperialism via the power of oil.
Posted by Arjay, Thursday, 3 June 2010 7:10:20 PM
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Dear CJ,

Quite right.

As Akiva Eldar responded in "Haaretz," :

"It is much easier to claim the entire world
is against us than admit that the state of Israel,
which rose as a refuge and a source of pride for
Jews ... has become a genuine source of danger
and a source of shameful embarrassment to Jews
who choose to live outside its border."
Posted by Foxy, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:52:16 PM
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Hamas has refused to allow the aid in... Thanks be for shortsighted fanatics...http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/02/israel.palestinians.aid/index.html

A ship in, or about to enter, Israeli Territorial Waters is Israel's problem. Gaza is autonomous, not a State, it does not have territorial waters or control of it's own airspace. If they weren't at war with Israel, then maybe that would change, inshallah.

Now the world is starting to wake up, the mainstream part of it too...http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwvIHJ3DhPg

An iron bar is a very effective weapon, it is capable of inflicting serious harm and/or death. A paintball gun is not. If I'd been on the rope and seen my comrades being beaten on the ground and in serious danger, I'd have opened fire too. As would the RAN if any of their boardings were reacted to in this way.

Israel "could" legally have blown the ships out of the water with ATG Missiles, they chose not to. I think they should with the next one if it moves on inch out of line. They and Hamas have shown how desperate the need is for those supplies.
Posted by Custard, Friday, 4 June 2010 12:31:20 AM
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Aka wrote:

"I am shocked that there were 3 Australians in the Israeli army that boarded the boat. I feel very uncomfortable that people with dual citizenship are able to join armed forces."

They had no choice, they are conscripts. Indeed a shocking and shameful practice of kidnapping children into 3-year slavery, whose only crime was to be born and reach the age of 18 in good health.
(OTOH, Australia did it too. Would you punish Australian dual-citizens because they were forcibly taken to Vietnam?)

Now, that is a disgusting crime and there may be others. It is legitimate to criticise the Israeli government, but note one fact:

IF YOU LIVE IN ISRAEL, YOU DON'T NEED TO BE ZIONIST (not even a Jew) FOR A KASSAM ROCKET TO FALL ON YOUR HEAD!

No matter how bad the government is, ordinary Israeli people are still dependent on their strong army and on security measures to survive and prevent the rockets from falling on their heads. This may include a blockade on Gaza unless you can offer better ways (please don't forget that when it comes to atrocities, the other side is no better).

One thing that Israelis are not, is stupid: it is better to be called the worst of terrible names while alive than to have legions of well-wishers eulogising you over your grave, so unless you come with practical solutions that take Israelis into account as well rather than demonize them all, keep screaming till your voice is hoarse, or better still, find yourself 72 virgins in heaven by taking a suicide trip on board one of those "peace ships".
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 4 June 2010 1:55:46 AM
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IT WAS, IS and will CONTINUE to be.. nothing but a PROPOGANDA exercise.

Evidence?

Jerusalem (CNN) -- Israel has attempted to deliver humanitarian aid from an international flotilla to Gaza, but Hamas -- which controls the territory -- has refused to accept the cargo, the Israel Defense Forces said Wednesday.

Clearly .. it was never about 'needed aid'.
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Friday, 4 June 2010 6:44:31 AM
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Most of the comments here are from people who use emotion and pre-conceieved notions of Israel to argue their extremely weak case.

Now that it's been a few days we know the following:

1. Flotilla was organised by a group with major links to terrorism (as acknowledged even by the fast-approaching Islamist Turkish Government).

2. The peace activists used iron-bars, knives, chains, and reportedly guns, to try (from what I can see from the footage) to actually kill the Israeli soldiers who embarked on their ship, i.e. they were hitting the soldier on the deck as hard as they could.

3. The peace activists wanted to be martyrs and made martyrdom videos and organised their wills before leaving.

4. Israel offered to inspect the cargo, as did the UN, and Egypt, but the ship-owners refused, i.e. they WANTED a confrontation.

5. The worlds media are cowards, and possibly Jew-hating racists for not reporting the truth of these facts.

6. The UN are anti-Israeli cowards. They condemn Israel for their actions of defending themselves, yet say nothing to North Korea, which ADMITTED they sunk a South Korean military ship killing 46.

7. Anyone who can't see that 6. is absolutely insane, and shows how much power the Arab League must have at the UN is in denial.

8. Anyone who thinks Israel is to blame here is ignoring reality.

9. The western peace activists on board, just like the human shields in Iraq, have been used as 'useful idiots' as Lenin would call them.
Posted by Benjam1n, Friday, 4 June 2010 7:37:41 AM
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International law states a nation enforcing a blockade CAN board ships in international waters even (that is, before they get to the blockade zone) provided they have asked them to turn around at least twice (Israel did it 4 times) and explain what is to happen.

Well we all know they were told because thats how they got all their baseball bats and knives, chains, amd so on.

peace activists...yeah, sure. A terrorist group organised the boat.

Israel should have torpedoed it. I hope they do this for the next one.
Posted by Benjam1n, Friday, 4 June 2010 8:17:52 AM
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Benjam1n, Spot on mate. The red/green/getup/labour coalition are full of "Peace Activists or useful idiots". The sooner we deport them to North Korea the better off we will all be.

ALGOREisRICH, Propaganda is all the red/green/getup/labour coalition knows what to do. http://www.whirlingdervishes.org/

This video demonstrates them in action, the aim of the exercise is to achieve a giddy, or trance like, or meditative state, where upon you fall down & then get up "Believing your own Bulls*%#". As we know from your "Frankfurt School" video, this is the basis for all left wing politics or the "lie repeatedly, till you are blue in the face" principle.

In fact i have come to the conclusion that all left wing politics is pure, stone, cold, evil, devil worship.

Yuyutsu, an interesting take on things but there is nothing at all, or even slightly wrong with conscription. Israel is a numerically small nation surrounded by neighbours committed to its destruction.

Compulsory conscription for all, is a pure, simple, survival device. They would have been destroyed decades ago without it.

Australia needs conscription just as much, if not more than Israel.

I don't even disagree with the settlements anymore.

There are only 2 possible solutions to the Middle East Problem.

1, remove all Muslims from both Israel & Lebanon, leaving them both entirely to Jews & Christians, together with going back to the 1967 borders for Israel.

2, Or, go the opposite way, give Israel back to the Muslim, Palestinians & provide another Homeland, or New Israel, to the Jews somewhere else. Like Australia. We could return to racial harmony, here, if we expelled all Muslims to the new Palestine & offered a new safe haven to Jews & Christians from the Middle East.
Posted by Formersnag, Friday, 4 June 2010 8:54:10 AM
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The comments from Israeli-apologists on this thread expose the derangement that accompanies fanatical religious belief.

To claim that Israel is the victim in the atrocity that killed 10 activists with 9 others unaccounted for (probably thrown overboard or killed elsewhere), is to completely ignore the facts.

Religion is a sickness. The people who suffer from it are a danger to themselves and the world!

http://www.dangerouscreation.com
Posted by David G, Friday, 4 June 2010 9:34:30 AM
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How ingenious, ex-snag:

Rape is a survival device (it mixes genes from otherwise unlikely sources).

Snatching young negroes and chaining them to boats is a survival device (who else would work in the cotton fields?)

Doctors agree that laughter is an essential survival device, so kick some people out of their homes (doesn't really matter whom), for no fun is possible otherwise.

Let all Un Australians (I guess that means white-people?) enjoy a harmonious cultural-reform in Baxter while Middle-Eastern Jews and Christians kindly house-sit their homes.

If indeed explusion is the only solution, then it is best to continue having no solution.
If indeed conscription is mandatory for survival, then perhaps it is better to give up surviving.
Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 4 June 2010 10:00:46 AM
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Arjay,

Jones, of course is more than just a parrot, he is a well paid parrot and he knows on what side the bread is buttered.
People like Jones have been around for years running with the foxes and hunting with the hounds making every post a winner. A few cliches to make the point of his trite little world.
He is about as sincere as a snake and capitalises on all manner of dramas but truthfully knows nothing. He is not bright and this point is obvious every day. Has some personal characteristics that are somewhat distasteful as well.
He, like Sheridan in The Jewish Paper of Record, The Australian owned by a Jew and with Sheridan as the Jewish mouthpiece in the print media are the same as Jones on the crass commercial airways. The Jews make sure they cover all avenues. Fools, like Jones do not even realise that they are being used by cunning operators, the same people involved in the recent passport fraud.
The world is full of people that have been compromised by lobby groups. The recent stupid comments by the feckless Abbott and the naivete Bishop indicate the level of penetration that such groups have made. It is the way they are. They unfortunately have all the characteristice of parasites clinging on to anything that gives them a free ride. Jones is one of those, giving his so-called 'sponsors' all the coverage he can.
In the USI, that is the United States of Israel, 80% of the Congress has been compromised by an evil Jewish lobby group called AIPAC, controlling elections, advertising funding, support and policy. Look them up but be careful, what you might see there is guaranteed to make any person interested in justice and eliminating hypocrisy very nauseous indeed.
As you can tell by comments made by the likes of Jones, Abbott and Sheridan, they are active here as well, a cancer in the Australian body.
Sounds dramatic? It is, very much so.
Posted by rexw, Friday, 4 June 2010 10:07:04 AM
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David G and his like are to blind to see themselves being used by terrorist to spread their propaganda. Maybe you need a bit of religion to stop you from being so blind.
Posted by runner, Friday, 4 June 2010 11:06:55 AM
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To CJ Morgan and others with similar views I would suggest a few
minutes thought along these lines.

It is generally considered that there is a war like status between
Gaza and Israel.
Israel should to clarify matters declare a state of war with Gaza.
Baby Boomers and those younger do not seem to realise the nature of
war at sea.
In a war, blockade runners are likely to be torpedoed without notice.
If Israel had sunk the ships with all on board there is plenty of
precedence to support their action.

As much as you all are appalled at that, that is the way it is
so live with it !
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 4 June 2010 11:13:04 AM
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Formersnag: << In fact i have come to the conclusion that all left wing politics is pure, stone, cold, evil, devil worship. >>

Thanks again for sharing some more of your "moderate and mainstream" political views.

runner: << Maybe you need a bit of religion to stop you from being so blind. >>

Religion doesn't seem to have done much for your vision, runner. Indeed, you seem distinctly one-eyed about most issues.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Friday, 4 June 2010 11:14:24 AM
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Baaaaaaaaaaaaaz, your comment exposes both your ignorance and total lack of humanity. I bet you pull the wings off butterflies too.

Anyone who suggests that Israel has the right to torpedo unarmed aid ships in international waters needs to seek psychiatric help!
Posted by David G, Friday, 4 June 2010 11:33:36 AM
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The Israelis go to any lengths to paint what they see as their opponents as terrorists. Even after the botched Israeli murderous move on a civilian humanitarian aid operation for Gaza.

Notwithstanding the propagandist spit and spin of this article, the world cannot afford to take anything the IDF or the Israeli government says about what happened on Monday at face value.

In a BBC report (see google) earlier this week, its stated that "Israeli Defence Minister Ehud Barak thanked the commandos involved in the raid when he visited them at their base in Atlit.

"We live in the Middle East, in a place where there is no mercy for the weak and there aren't second chances for those who don't defend themselves," he was quoted by Haaretz newspaper as saying."

I'd say that pretty much say's it all.
Posted by Sentel, Friday, 4 June 2010 12:48:38 PM
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The only ones that can inflict any damage on Israel are the Iranians.

They have the capability to wipe Israel of the map of the world. Then they would target the Arab sunnis and the Islamists Turks. Fundamentalists Iranians believe that the Islamic messiah is coming back to rule the world under shariah.

Judging by what happened after the global financial crisis, it is Goldman Sachs and the rich Jews that rule the US. Obama is just a figure head in the pockets of these oligarchs. From day one, Obama was supported by them; that was why Obama could help pay off Hilary Clinton's $20 million debts.

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2008/06/27/obama_to_help_clinton_pay_off_20m_in_campaign_debts/
Posted by Philip Tang, Friday, 4 June 2010 12:49:17 PM
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David G, Your so right David, religion is very dangerous, this video will explain to you, how it is poisoning your mind. Basically it works like this, "Big Brother" Karl Marx, from "1984" says "religion is the opiate of the masses" "Christianity is crap" "All hale the new religion, Communism, Climate change, Fe"Man"Nazism, etc, etc, etc.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8630135369495797236#

There is no zealot more evangelical than an atheist, or loony, lefty like you. I bet you think the red/green/getup/labour coalition does not promote corporate paedophilia.

CJ Morgan, you appear to have the same problem as David G. Climate change may not be, "crap" but that does not automatically mean that Left wingers are not compulsive liars.

You know, as well as i do, that my "Views" are indeed moderate, mainstream stuff & held by 80% to 90% of the population. I will grant you that as wordsmith's go, i am not exactly backward, in coming forward, but what i do is exactly the same as what good comedians do, namely say what everybody is thinking & has been too afraid of the PC thought police to say publicly.

My maternal Grandparents were good conservative farming types like you claim to live &/or work with. They were polite, that is they would not insult you, in your shop even if they did think you were a lunatic. Next time you are socialising with some of them, try joking with them, about red/greens not being green like Kermit the frog, but like some of the watermelons they grow, green on the outside & all "Pinko Commie" on the inside. They will laugh with you on that one, every time. They would also agree if you suggested that Fe"Man"Nazism has done nothing other than abuse innocent children, men & women, as well.

rexw, could not have said it better myself, all supporters of the red/green/getup/labour coalition are compulsive liars, a cancer on our nation, a puss filled boil in need of lancing.
Posted by Formersnag, Friday, 4 June 2010 1:07:01 PM
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Well David G, it matters for nothing what you may think of my mentality
or what I may think of what the Israelis may or may not do.
My purpose was to point out that blockade running is a very dangerous sport.

Too many people are trying to make out that it is just like having a
march down the street in one of our cities.
It is not, it is a wartime activity and can have similar results to
the war at sea in the Atlantic, but of course on a smaller scale.
No one prosecuted the German U boat captains for war crimes for
sinking allied shipping.
The firing of rockets into Israel has the same hallmark as the V1
attacks on London, but again on a smaller scale.

It all looks like war to me.

There is the precedent.
Posted by Bazz, Friday, 4 June 2010 1:34:40 PM
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Bazz
If a state of war exists or were to exist then the collective punishment of the people of Gaza would be irrefutably a warcrime. Hello Nuremberg.

"No one prosecuted the German U boat captains for war crimes for
sinking allied shipping."

By your reckoning the missiles fired by Hamas are perfectly legitimate. No one prosecuted the Germans for firing missiles. No one prosecutes the Americans for all their missile strikes. It would also make Gilad shalit a prisoner of war not a hostage. There is a reason Israel plays such a weasel game about these things.
Posted by mikk, Friday, 4 June 2010 11:12:34 PM
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Proof of Jewish perfidy:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 5 June 2010 12:06:32 AM
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Let's get some perspective here,the topic is not the behaviour of Jews,it's the policies and actions of the nation-state of Israel.
Posted by mac, Saturday, 5 June 2010 11:45:15 AM
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Some new and very disturbing information.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/04/gaza-flotilla-activists-autopsy-results

Shot in the back? WTF? The only way to shoot someone in the back is if they are running away from you. This is not what the Israelis have been saying. There must be a serious inquiry into this massacre.
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 5 June 2010 1:14:52 PM
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Flotilla sang for confrontation, not for aid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOGG_osOoVg&feature=player_embedded
Posted by Proxy, Saturday, 5 June 2010 3:55:10 PM
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Or if they are attempting to guard the 4 IDF members that the Al-Jazeera Cameraman stated & filmed, were being held below when the second, armed team came on board.

30 rounds, all 9mm... That supports the stated facts, that's about 3rounds for each of the 9 dead individuals, which is low, even by Australian (particularly Victoria Police) standards.

The use of pistols would have prevented a lot of the harm that would have resulted from using high powered rifles/assault weapons. Then again, it appears that the team made damn sure the people targeted were dead before they turned their back on them, once again, fairly normal procedure when confronted by armed opponents.

If they had 4 IDF members hostage, stands to reason they had at least 4 pistols from the same... Seems like they've tried to have a shoot-out with trained soldiers, VERY VERY BAD move.
Posted by Custard, Saturday, 5 June 2010 3:57:05 PM
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If a state of war exists between a Country and another Country or an autonomous region, there is no such thing as collective punishment. It is war, if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, you are going to get hit. That is what comes of choosing to support a government which has decided to wage war on an enemy that is many times better equipped than itself.

This "Collective Punishment" crap is absurd. So the Luftwaffe collectively punished the inhabitants of London in the Blitz? The RAF collectively punished the inhabitants of Cologne, Berlin, etc. in the bombing raids they conducted? I mean, both were expressly designed to kill civilians, why was "collective punishment" not suggested then?
Posted by Custard, Saturday, 5 June 2010 4:01:33 PM
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Yes Mikk, it can be argued that firing of missiles into Israel is
legitimate, but not by civilians.
This is what I was referring to when I said that Israel should clarify
the situation by declaring war. They perhaps could answer by saying
that Hamas declared war with its declaration to destroy Israel.

Remembering that neutral blockade runners have been sunk in the past,
do you realise that doing such action causes a loss of neutrality ?

The question you might answer is considering that in the past ships
have been seized carrying arms and rockets, would you insist on
inspecting the cargo ?
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 5 June 2010 4:03:39 PM
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Custard
you are talking bollocks. You obviously dont understand the concept of "collective punishment". It is not the blitz or the bombing of Dresden etc. It was the nazi policy of destroying whole villages in retaliation for resistance raids. The dragging into the town square of any number of civilians and murdering them to try to deter the Resistance.

Article 33 of the Geneva convention.
No protected person may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against protected persons and their property are prohibited.

For "protected person" read civilian.

Israels blockade of Gaza and the recent war are both blatant examples of collective punishment. Even more heinous is that 50% of Gaza is under 18. So it is collective punishment of children. Talk about child abuse!
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 5 June 2010 4:47:10 PM
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Bazz
If Hamas thought they had a chance of being seen as a legitimate defense force Im sure they would be stoked.
Declaring a state of war may make sinking blockade runners "legal" but I doubt the worlds reaction and condemnation would be any different than in the recent case.
It would also raise many many more problems for Israel.
Hamas could "legally" seek better weapons and if they could get them past the Israeli blockade they would be well within their rights to use them against Israeli troops or military targets.
Even now Hamas could say they are "aiming" their missiles at military targets. Its not their fault they only have crappy missiles that wont go where they tell them to.
Like I said before it would make Gilad Shalit and any other "captured" Israelis in the future prisoners of war not hostages and thus no chance at all of coming home until the cessation of hostilities.
It would mean settlements and Israeli expansionism are definite warcrimes.
Israel knows what it is doing. Its obfuscation and intransigence are all calculated to prolong the conflict for as long as it takes to bring about "greater Israel" in the land supposedly given to their ancestors by their insane, cruel imaginary friend 5000 years ago.
Posted by mikk, Saturday, 5 June 2010 4:47:22 PM
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People can froth at the mouth as much as they want. These activist/terrorist obviously have no idea that they can't win. Israel existed long before the terrorist sympathizers would like to admit and will remain long after most if not all of the sympathizers will be dead. A number of times nations have united to take on the God of Israel. Simply put they have no hope. Anyone who can't see that Israel is a modern day miracle is totally blind. A basic understanding of Scripture has already foretold of Israel's enemies and its subsequent victories. It is not surprising to see mostly god haters pouring out their bile on the only democratic nation in the middle east.
Posted by runner, Saturday, 5 June 2010 6:07:33 PM
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HOT Israeli vs Islamic Knights:

Well as your (overt) custodian of Current Intelligence ("CI" to those in the (covert) know) all I can say is you are behind on what is happening.- and that's terrible.

As postulated by moi "Posted by plantagenet, Thursday, 3 June 2010 10:54:43 AM" on this thread.

Israeli security forces boarding MV Rachel Corrie was and is the next big event that you sundry ideologues (and Koran bashers) didn't see or care about - it has now happened as foretold by yours truely:

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/06/05/2919241.htm

After 4 hot nights in the saddle (you know) I'm here at home - almost alone. My sweet wife is at a French night a la Champagne and here I'm at home with the wog, not from next door, but delivered by a chickadee up the road. While I write a Uni essay in pursuit of a bigger, better H-Bomb for our fair land. But I digress.

At this juncture I present, again, my new daughter/niece/whatever (Shiri Maimon) who is hot, singing her rendition of "Hatikva" (the Israeli National Anthem) see:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ian_NCV4aCM&feature=player_embedded

This is again a bitter criticism of Israel, that Western outpost of the Middle East that never ceases to puzzle or horrify.

For balance, as an appreciator of hot semitic women (on youtube) I present a representative gal from Israel's worst enemy and custodian of the Islamic Bomb, Pakistan, sung in hot Urdu and (sort of) English:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZmubKmFPKY&feature=player_embedded

You do the math. This girl rather than Shiri, my "niece" is definitely hotter (and within OLO tolerance I hope). And this from Pakistan - a rogue Islamic state - very, very confusing!

Disregard the other bloke. He's my nephew. Except I'm more Arab looking.

Very close family ;)

Pete
( http://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2010/05/nuclear-weapons-for-australia-ongoing.html :)
Posted by plantagenet, Saturday, 5 June 2010 10:15:57 PM
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Mikk,
You did not answer my question.
You do have answer don't you ?
Again

>The question you might answer is considering that in the past ships
have been seized carrying arms and rockets, would you insist on
inspecting the cargo ?
Posted by Bazz, Saturday, 5 June 2010 11:36:05 PM
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Poooor deluded custard... I need to remind you Custard.. Logic..history, reason and facts have no place in discussions like this :)
Posted by ALGOREisRICH, Sunday, 6 June 2010 8:45:39 AM
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>The question you might answer is considering that in the past ships
have been seized carrying arms and rockets, would you insist on
inspecting the cargo ?

Not in this case as all the ships had been inspected by their countries of origin.
Posted by mikk, Sunday, 6 June 2010 11:35:01 AM
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How did Israel manage to loose the PR war? A generation ago kids were working on Kibbutzes now they are running blockades.
Posted by gusi, Sunday, 6 June 2010 12:36:30 PM
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Mikk replied;

>Not in this case as all the ships had been inspected by their
>countries of origin.

Well, I never thought of that, and I imagine the Israelis never
thought of that either.

By the way I have a nice bridge that crosses Sydney Harbour I am
interested at selling at a food price. Interested ?

You wouldn't read about it !
Posted by Bazz, Sunday, 6 June 2010 2:41:55 PM
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gusi: << How did Israel manage to loose the PR war? A generation ago kids were working on Kibbutzes now they are running blockades. >>

Good point. My explanation is that Israel has gone from being an ideal that we all supported to being a murderous rogue State that just doesn't pay any attention to any criticism from anywhere.

How did they get there?

Through their own actions of course. Israel seems to have internalised the very same atrocities that gave rise to its establishment, such that it now acts them out as a State.

Unfortunately, I can't see any reasonable accommodation in the near future. I'm terrfied by the fact that Israel has nuclear weapons.

Forget the Islamists. Israel is the biggest threat to global peace that currently exists.
Posted by CJ Morgan, Sunday, 6 June 2010 7:14:32 PM
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Here are the pictures from the AP: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jVq5_qVfEU7G8sQDbjpN64rMmdtQD9G5TC3G0 which show soldiers from the 1st wave being held on the ship. They were released by the IHH itself.

Make up your own mind.

How did they win the PR war? They haven't, they just never seem to win the short-term hysteria, the long-term truth seems to go their way more times than not.

Try and fit the photos from the IHH in with their original protestations of innocence... See how they fit with what the IDF described. I know we have some people here who have serious issues with AIPD, but facts are facts, and photos released from the IHH which tend to clear the IDF, are facts (voluntary release of material tending to ones own discredit is ALWAYS probative).
Posted by Custard, Monday, 7 June 2010 8:30:30 AM
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