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The Forum > Article Comments > Abdullah abdicates rationality on West Bank nationality > Comments

Abdullah abdicates rationality on West Bank nationality : Comments

By David Singer, published 24/2/2010

Historical facts become important when looking for solutions to sovereignty in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza.

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David Singer

And as I've said for the umpteenth time, most Muslims do not agree with what their governments do when it comes to Israel.

Case in Point:

One of the OIC countries that has relations with Israel is Egypt. The Jew hatred of the populace is tempered only by the need to protect Egypt's profitable tourist industry. Even so, Egypt's tightly censored media seem to be trying to compete with the Third Reich when it comes to Jew hatred. Have you forgotten eg "A Knight Without a Horse" – a "documdrama" based on the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion"?

You call me a defeatist. I call myself a realist.

What I am about to write will strike many as harsh. Nonetheless I believe it is the only realistic way of assessing the situation.

There is only ONE lesson worth learning from the Holocaust:

When people demonise Jews, when they compare us to apes and pigs, to slimy subhuman beings, to viruses and cancers, then assume that eventually they are going to try and massacre us.

That is the ONLY lesson worth remembering. If we ever forget it six million Jews will have died in vain no matter how many memorials we erect.

The Holocaust did not "just happen". For centuries Europe was drenched in anti-Semitic propaganda. See for example "Saint" Chrysostom's Homilies against the Jews.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html

The kind of material about Jews that pervades the Ummah today makes Chrysostom look like a pacifist! I can only compare it to Der Sturmer.

David,

I do not know whether war can be averted or whether Israel can survive. But this I do know. You do not save a nation by indulging in fantasy - which is what you are doing. Successful survival strategies need to be grounded in reality. Unfortunately reality included the unremitting and ferocious hatred emanating from the Ummah which poisons everything.

It is what it is.

My usual disclaimer. I am NOT debating rights and wrongs or "legalities", merely describing the situation as I see it
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Sunday, 28 February 2010 4:35:24 PM
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You asked
7.Jews have legal claims in the West Bank and Gaza pursuant to the Mandate and Article 80. Do you agree with this?
I replied
7.No bloody way. Israel has claim to no more than 22% of the land West of the Jordan river. Do you agree with this?
You replied
7. I agree 100% with what you say. I have never suggested anything else.
Seems pretty clear to me where you agreed.

You quote the Secretary General of the Arab League
How about I quote Ben Gurion
"after we become a strong force, as a result of the creation of a state, we shall abolish partition and expand into the whole of Palestine"
Or what about Menachem Begin
"The partition of the Homeland is illegal. It will never be recognized. The signature of institutions and individuals of the partition agreement is invalid. It will not bind the Jewish people. Jerusalem was and will forever be our capital. Eretz Israel (the land of Israel) will be restored to the people of Israel, All of it. And forever.
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 2 March 2010 1:51:28 PM
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The arab nations only invaded because of Israels (illegal) declaration of ownership of what did not belong to them. I should have been clearer in stating that I was talking about Arabs that lived in what is now Telaviv, Ahskelon, Haifa and Natanya et al not the ones that invaded? What did those people do to the Jews and how do you justify stealing their properties after they left? No matter why they left the fact remains Israel stole their property. Their homes and businesses, their towns and infrastructure. Please explain how this is just? This was happening months before Israels declaration or the end of the mandate. The fact is from November 1947 to May 1948 the Zionists were already on the offensive and had already attacked Arabs. In the months before Israel was declared, the Zionists had driven 300,000 non-Jews off their land.

You are squirming like a worm on a hook over the distribution of land to the Jews and Palestinians after the British left arent you. You say Israel was given all the land between the Mediterranean sea and the Jordan river. That is not what UN General Assembly Resolution 181 says is it. Indeed nowhere in any document I have seen does it say anything like that. Please point one out if you can.
Israel is only entitled to the land within the green line and even that only if you accept that land captured in war can be kept. If so why does not America now "own" Iraq? Or Afghanistan or why the allies did not "own" Germany or Japan after the second world war?

The crux of the matter is I see Israel as a dishonest, expansionist, colonial state willing to do anything, including genocide, murder and ethnic cleansing to get back "eretz israel" and the Palestinians have every right to fight this with whatever means they have available. Since Israel is much more powerful than the Palestinians and they have very few willing to stand up on their behalf terrorism and guerrilla warfare is all they have
Posted by mikk, Tuesday, 2 March 2010 1:51:31 PM
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# Mikk

Let me repeat once again:

1. Israel now comprises 17% of Mandate Palestine.
2. Jordan now comprises 78% of Mandate Palestine
3. The West Bank and Gaza now comprise 5% of Mandate Palestine.

Of the land comprised in the Mandate of Palestine WEST OF THE JORDAN RIVER
1. Israel is 78%
2. The West Bank and Gaza is 22%

The Mandate and Article 80 entitles the Jews to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in all of the land west of the Jordan River or such lesser part of that land as the Jewish people determine.

You seem to not want to see a solution to the conflict . The two-state solution is dead. The only possible solution now is the division of sovereignty of the West Bank between Jordan and Israel. Gaza is a hell hole that at the moment must be put in the "too hard basket" whilst it remains under Hamas rule.
Posted by david singer, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 3:05:58 PM
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Mandate this mandate that. Cut the BS singer and answer me how you justify the theft of arab homes, businesses and land after the 1948 conflict? If someone is driven from or leaves their home why can jews just come along and say it is mine now? This is the basic injustice Israel perpetrated and is the root of all arab grievances.

<<The Mandate and Article 80 entitles the Jews to reconstitute the Jewish National Home in all of the land west of the Jordan River or such lesser part of that land as the Jewish people determine.>>

What utter lies singer. No one has ever recognised Israels right to this much land and if they did it would be in a one state situation and we know what that means dont we. The two state solution is only dead if Israel kills it and the only alternative is to make the current residents of the West bank and Gaza Israeli citizens. With full political and social rights.
Posted by mikk, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 3:38:36 PM
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#Mikk

Your proposal cannot be achieved. Too much hatred between Jews and Arabs in the West Bank built up over the last 40 years makes your proposal unachievable.

The only proposal that has any chance of succeeding is that the heavily populated Arab areas of the West Bank be incorporated in an expanded Jordan and the heavily populated Jewish areas of the West Bank be incorporated in an expanded Israel.

The solution for Gaza will ultimately have to involve Gaza becoming part of Egypt or Jordan if and when Hamas cease to control Gaza. If Jordan is the Arabs' choice, Israel's consent will be necessary since it would involve some connecting tunnel or route through Israel to the West Bank to be provided.

Those appear to be the peaceful options available in my opinion.
Posted by david singer, Wednesday, 3 March 2010 5:44:47 PM
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