The National Forum   Donate   Your Account   On Line Opinion   Forum   Blogs   Polling   About   
The Forum - On Line Opinion's article discussion area



Syndicate
RSS/XML


RSS 2.0

Main Articles General

Sign In      Register

The Forum > Article Comments > Abdullah bristles as Palestine fizzles > Comments

Abdullah bristles as Palestine fizzles : Comments

By David Singer, published 15/2/2010

Jordan’s King Abdullah must show leadership and negotiate with Israel on the sovereignty of the West Bank.

  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. Page 4
  6. 5
  7. All
You didn't have to, David F.

Your smart-arse insinuations against my historical comparisons were enough.

You certainly wouldn't get too far among academics, one wonders if you have ever met one?
Posted by bushbred, Thursday, 18 February 2010 10:23:54 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
steven
Just because that is the way the people think now does not mean it has to stay that way. Take religion out of the mix and the problems will melt away and people would wonder what the fuss was all about. Without religion and with a bit of cooperation the middle east could be a powerhouse of productivity, technology and creativity.

Many problems in the past have seemed just as intractable and unsolvable as this one but have been changed by mass pressure from lots of people, using protest, sanctions and boycotts and political muscle. South Africa comes to mind. India, Europe, the USSR. To just give up is to invite Armageddon and dismiss the lives of millions of innocents.
Posted by mikk, Thursday, 18 February 2010 7:30:58 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
#stevenlmeyer

You ask:

1. Who is going to exert the pressure on Jordan? The Quartet

2. What possible "security guarantees" can be offered? Guarantees by the Quartet and Israel to protect the Hashemite monarchy from being overthrown by Hamas or the PLO as you mentioned was once attempted by Arafat in 1970. The 2.4 million "newly minted" Palestinians are not the problem just as the existing population of Jordan are not a problem. The Hashemites have ruled 78% of Mandate Palestine since 1923 and their future reign should be safeguarded as a condition of Jordan's re-entry into the West Bank.

I am not as totally pessimistic as you in believing that there is a general Arab or Muslim consensus to destroy the State of Israel. There will always be crazies who dream of the day this will happen. They will not go away and Israel has to confront and defeat them as has happened in the last 60 years.

In saying I am in fantasy-land you fail to take into consideration that Israel has had signed peace treaties with Jordan since 1994 and Egypt since 1979.

The advantage of the peace treaty with Jordan is that it already deals with the settling of core issues like refugees,water and Jerusalem'

Jordan is indeed the key to unlocking the West Bank and offering its Arab citizens hope for a brighter future and a happier life.

#Mikk

Religion is at the heart of the dispute and no amount of wishful thinking will make it disappear. Judaism,Christianity and Islam all have their beginnings in the region. The Middle East is not South Africa and what happened there will not happen in the Middle East. 22 Arab Islamic States and one Jewish State are not going to throw away their religious foundations and live happily ever after. The best one can hope for is a realization that war has no rewards for anyone. The continuing argument by the Arabs over a piece of land one twelfth the size of Tasmania is only a recipe for misery and sorrow for everyone caught up in the fracas
Posted by david singer, Thursday, 18 February 2010 9:02:45 PM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
David Singer

Write out a 100 times:

Regardless of what the GOVERNMENTS of various Muslim majority countries may do, the worldwide "Ummah" will NEVER accept a Jewish enclave in the heart of Dar ul Islam.

Yes after suffering multiple defeats the governments of Israel's neighbours have, for now, abandoned the military option. But the attitudes of their PEOPLE towards Jews varies between antipathy and hatred. King Hussein signed a treaty with Israel in the teeth of opposition from most Jordanians. He did it only after his sugar-daddy, Saddam, had been financially crippled and he needed American aid.

If you truly want to understand the FEROCITY of Jew-hatred in the Muslim world read:

"A Lethal Obsession: Anti-Semitism from Antiquity to the Global Jihad" by Robert S. Wistrich.

See:

http://www.amazon.com/Lethal-Obsession-Anti-Semitism-Antiquity-Global/dp/1400060974/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266497933&sr=1-1

Warning: This is a TERRIFYING book. Wistrich meticulously documents the depth of Jew-hatred in the Muslim world and the re-awakening of Jew-hatred in Europe.

Read it and then tell me you do not believe in a Muslim consensus to destroy Israel and kill Jews.

But Israel's greatest strategic challenge is growing Muslim – and anti-Semitic – influence in Europe. I predict the Netherlands will be the first country to deny El Al landing and overflight rights. Spain may be the second despite the current warming of relations between Israel and that country.

Mikk

Interesting how the myths about South Africa persist. To get a more realistic picture of Mandela and the ANC I suggest "South Africa's Brave New World" by R. W. Johnson.

http://www.amazon.com/South-Africas-Brave-World-ebook/dp/B002RI94TG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1266498607&sr=1-1

However, never mind South Africa.

Religion is not going away. There is ZERO chance of the Muslim Ummah acceding to a Jewish enclave in the heart of Dar-ul-Islam - especially now that they believe, with reason, that TIME IS ON THEIR SIDE.

They scent blood.

It follows that this is a fight to the death regardless of anything Israel does.

Fortunately I am a keen cyclist so I won’t be paying $10 / litre for petrol when the end comes!

Again, I am NOT debating the rights and wrongs.
Posted by stevenlmeyer, Friday, 19 February 2010 7:20:36 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
Dear stevenlmeyer,

I think your pessimism is a realistic appraisal of the situation.
Posted by david f, Friday, 19 February 2010 10:15:39 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
# stevenlmeyer

I cannot agree with your comment:

"Regardless of what the GOVERNMENTS of various Muslim majority countries may do, the worldwide "Ummah" will NEVER accept a Jewish enclave in the heart of Dar ul Islam."

Governments make war and make peace - not the worldwide Ummah.

At present 27 members of the 56 members in the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC) maintain diplomatic relations with Israel - which is very heartening considering 22 of the 29 remaining OIC members are Arab states only two of which maintain diplomatic relations with Israel.

The 22 Arab League States (excluding Jordan and Egypt) and Iran are the real Muslim protagonists presently facing Israel. Till they recognize Israel as the Jewish State the possibility of conflict with these States is high.

I agree that Muslim (and non-muslim)anti-semitic influence in Europe is a growing and concerning problem. However as the embattled European countries face a Muslim takeover in the face of increasing Muslim immigration that presses for the introduction of Sharia law and recognition of polygamy - which as citizens they are perfectly entitled to agitate for and demand - the scene can rapidly change. Europe is fast becoming a tinderbox ready to explode.

But even if you think I am still in fantasy-land your following prognosis:

"It follows that this is a fight to the death regardless of anything Israel does."

is very defeatist in accepting that nothing Israel does can avoid the fight to the death.

Do you not see a ray of hope if Jordan were to re-enter the West Bank with Israel's approval and grant Jordanian citizenship to its Arab inhabitants? Isn't it worth your effort to use your undoubted intellectual ability to pursue this or any other solution you think possible to break the current deadlock in an effort to avoid the fight to the death?

Or are you just going to sit by and do nothing, knock any proposal because nothing Israel does will be accepted by the Arabs and then proudly claim that when the inevitable war comes your opinion has been vindicated?
Posted by david singer, Friday, 19 February 2010 10:31:52 AM
Find out more about this user Recommend this comment for deletion Return to top of page Return to Forum Main Page Copy comment URL to clipboard
  1. Pages:
  2. 1
  3. 2
  4. 3
  5. Page 4
  6. 5
  7. All

About Us :: Search :: Discuss :: Feedback :: Legals :: Privacy